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  #11  
Old 05-14-2008, 11:29 AM
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For starters. I don't think Hispanic Immigration and Illegal immigration should be confused. They are not the same. I support anyone's right to come here to find a better life... BUT if they wish to come here then they must start with respect for the laws of our country. That includes immigration laws.

BTW one term people oft use is "The American Melting Pot" I find this a misleading term. At its best this country is more like a Giant STEW pot with different flavors mixed in complementing each other to create something greater than the sum of the parts. We should not puree America into one bland "One size fits all" nation. But along these lines I find it disturbing and criminal to shut out immigrants because they are different and disturbing and tragic when immigrants come here for whatever reason but choose to shut out the culture of the nation to which they have come.
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  #12  
Old 05-14-2008, 11:36 AM
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That actually is probably going to be the hardest part. The first part in terms of fixing INS is probably going to be the easiest part. The next part, which is going to be politically very difficult, is reaching some kind of compromise about what to do with those that are already here. I don't think it's practical nor right to simply deport every single person that's here illegally, specifically in the case of people that have already established themselves here. This is particularly true in cases where a person came here at an extremely young age and really has no recollection of their country of origin. That's like all of a sudden releasing a person who has been institutionalize for most of their life.

Once all the compromises about people already here have been made and implemented, we really have to say "Aright, from here on out this is what our immigration policy is and we are ACTUALLY going to enforce it from now on." Now obviously the details of those policies can take up an entire discussion unto itself, such as if it should have a guest worker program, etc, etc. Overall, it's really stupid to shut of immigration as a whole. Immigration is an integral part of this country, but obviously every country expects people to abide by its laws while within its borders and expects other nations to respect its sovereignty, just like you would with the person living across the street or next door.

On top of all of this, I think a great deal is also going to be dependent on the Mexican government as well. If some of the accusations are indeed true that the Mexican government has done things to subvert our immigration laws (not that we haven't done a good job of that ourselves), then there is a serious problem that needs to be dealt with. And I think the first step is to basically find out why they would be doing that to begin with.
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Last edited by Akula2ssn : 05-14-2008 at 11:39 AM.
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  #13  
Old 05-14-2008, 11:39 AM
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I think I should my feelings on this subject:

I am in the middle. I do not want to write a novel so I will try to be brief. The problem with the status of current immigration law and enforcement is that there are many things messd up and no one solution will fix anything.

The border fence issue. I am all for better enforcement of the border. Whether this is done with more personel, fences, or monitoring equipment is irrellavant to me. I will leave that to the profesionals and those actually working there to decide. I am NOT concerned with the people coming to the U.S. to work and make honest money. I DO wish we could stop. or least dramatically reduce, the flow of drugs and weapons into and out of Mexico.

Legal Immigration. The people wanting to earn better income and to provide a better life for their children would NOT resort to illegal crossing if the Legal sytem for immigration were not so messed up. It is very expensive and can take years to immigrate legally. Many people simply can not wait when thier family is starving. We need to do more to grant legal documents and to make the process affordable.

Illegal Immigrants already here. They can not and should not be treated as animals. Anyone that feels we should "round them up" and deport them is not thinking realistically nor humanely. I know many people see "amnesty" as forgiving illegal behavior, even many legal immigrants feel this way because they waited and did things correctly. In my opinion "amnesty" should be something like the following: If you are here illegally you would make yourself known to the government. Then you would be granted legal paperwork giving you temporary worker status while the rest of your paperwork is filed and processed. You would be subject to background checks and fined for illegally crossing. Paying the fine would be based on income (broken into payments with no interest), not being able to outright pay a fine should NOT disqualify you from the process. You would be required to obtain legal driver's licenses or ID from whichever state you reside in. After final approval you would be granted permant alien worker status. Applying for citizenship would be another ballgame.

Seperating illegal immigrants from their children should NEVER happen. If an illegal immigrant is captured and processed for deportation his/her family must be cared for and consideration must taken to NOT seperate mothers from children. If a woman begs to please not take her to jail because her children are waiting for her, then it must me taken seriously and someone sent to the home.

Employers that knowingly and willingly employ illegal workers should be heavily fined and/or their licenses revoked based on severity of the situation or number of occurances.

I am sure I will think of more as I read your posts.

Last edited by MrQ1701 : 05-15-2008 at 01:01 AM.
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  #14  
Old 05-14-2008, 01:25 PM
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Me, I could care less. You want to come to America and do jobs we're too lazy and fat to do? Be my guest.

However, I don't like the idea of the fence. Penn & Teller had an episode of B*llsh*t in which they showed that it took less time to go through the fence than to build it. Even better, illegals had been used to build part of the fence.

Eventually, fences can keep you IN as well as OUT. That's too totalitarian for my tastes.
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  #15  
Old 05-14-2008, 03:19 PM
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Too touchy a subject do discuss in detail.. the forum is not big enough for me to put down all the points for the discussion..

but needless to say, Illegals of all nationalities need to be exported back to their countries of Origin. The United States should charge those countries for the Exportation in hopes of them increasing their own border security. Illegals who want to stay in the US should have to pay back taxes to make up the difference that they leached off of us in Medicade, housing, and Food stamps based off a Lie Detector test or Sodium Penthenol to determine the actual ammount of time they have been in the US.. It is only fair.. I have paid taxes since I was 16.. Illegals have never paid taxes, and that is not fair the the American Citizen who live within the law. Illegals use our schools, roads, hospitals, the housing authority for homes, Foodstamps, and we pay for it, they don't.. and then they send money that could boost local shops and local economy over the border.. which hurts our economy.

Housing and population is at critical levels in the US as well as imported drugs and weapons, which mainly come in to the US through either Dual Citizenship people or Illegals (not all but at least 72%)...

I do not disagree that they are hard working, but I disagree with the method of how they came by thier job. Anyone can enter the Untied States under a Visa or a Work Permit, or a Visitors Permit and then go through the process of becoming an American Citizen.. That way they get better pay, better medical benifits, their taxes goes into our Medicade, Medicare, Social Security, Roads, Schools, etc.. just like ours does.

Also banning companies, for example, Western Union, from doing out of country money grams would also help bolster local and national economics since the money would be much harder to send across the border. Banks should be injunctioned for the same thing.. in order for money to be sent out of the USA, you must be

1. A US Citizen or resident alien with valid work permit
2. Having a valid Social Security Number with a certified birth cirtificate.
3. Be able to read, write and speak english since the documents (hopefully legislation will pass this, it already passed in Huston, TX and Dallas, TX) are written in English only.

Finally sending money out of the country should be limited to no more than $400 a month per person. This way if a person who was Illegal, becoming a citizen, is making say $1200 a month, and they send most of their money out of the country, this would force them to either put it into an American Savings account or Invest it, or spend it in American businesses.. that would be $800 per person a month bolstering our economy instead ob bolstering another countries economy.

Housing rules should be enforced. Legally, you are suppose to have 1 bedroom per every 2 people (sometime 3 people depending on square feet) and those 2 pople are either Married, Engaged, or in a Relationship.. and Children have to be the same sex and within 5 years of age of each other. Livingrooms are not considered Bedrooms. This means that if you have a family of 5... 2 parents, 2 boys, and a girl. the parents and girl must have their own separate bedrooms and the boys, if within 5 years of each other can have a 3rd room shared.. or if more than 5 years age difference, then each have a separate room.

This is pretty much standard across the United States under tha Housing Authority.. however it is not being enforced.. They should enforce this law as well since Most Illegals cram 6 to 12 people into an efficiency apartment (I have seen this personally on hundreds of ocasions) so that they can send even more money across the border..

We have laws.. they are just not enforced the way they should be.

As for catching an Illegal.. 1st offense, 3 months jail at his expense (or put into a Work Release program with electronic monitoring with all money going to the state) and then deported. 2nd offense, Prison for 2 years (this is already a work program to begin with. State Jail and Wackenhutt facilities excluded. Texas Prison system is 100% self sufficient with free labor all year round), then deported. 3rd offense, Lifetime imprisonment (3 strikes law).

Increase boder patrol and increase detection technology isung infrared, motion detection, satallite imaging, more personel armed with Tazers and non letal weapons like the Bean Shotgun or rubber bullet rifle. Line the borders with Razor Wire 6 feet thick 8 feet high, Texas Prison Issue razor wire.. the type that is designed to make you bleed out.

Make things as tough as possible for people trying to get in Illegally so that they will decide to come over using legal methods..

If the US finally puts it's foot down, then things will get better..

If you don't think that they are hurting our economy :

Out of a total immigrant population of 37.9 million, an estimated 11.3 million are illegals

That is from Washington Post March 2008

Lets say that the average american pays $2000 a year in taxes. $2,000 * 11.3 million = $22,600,000,000 this year alone that could go into our schools, roads, medicade, Housing, Food stamps.. this is excluding Social Security and Medicare.

So, in short, I support a more forceful approach to Illegals.. They can become US Citizens, but they must pay their back dues. Otherwise, send them off or lock them away in work prisons since they want to work so bad.. at least it is something that will help the US economy grow, not their country of origin's economy.

Last edited by Pestalence_XC : 05-14-2008 at 03:24 PM.
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  #16  
Old 05-14-2008, 04:04 PM
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Pestalence, I can not tell if your entire post was sarcastic or if you believe that B.S. There is so much wrong with what you just posted I do not have the time to take it apart piece by piece. Are you sure you live in the United States? I will log on tomorrow and take this one on.
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  #17  
Old 05-14-2008, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerhanner View Post
Me, I could care less. You want to come to America and do jobs we're too lazy and fat to do? Be my guest..
This part is great! very true. In my home town most teenagers don't even want to work at fast food places. Those kinds of jobs were mostly filled by high schoolers when I was a teenager, now most fast food places are staffed with Mexican workers. I am NOT saying illegals, but it is possible some are. That is just one example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerhanner View Post
However, I don't like the idea of the fence. Penn & Teller had an episode of B*llsh*t in which they showed that it took less time to go through the fence than to build it. Even better, illegals had been used to build part of the fence..
I know most basic type fences do NOT pose much of an obstacle and can can be defeated fairly easily, but there are fences that are much more difficult to circumvent than you might imagine. I am certain a fence along the entire border will not end the flow of illegal traffic, but it is PART of the solution in places.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerhanner View Post
Eventually, fences can keep you IN as well as OUT. That's too totalitarian for my tastes.
You are not alone in this opinion.

Last edited by MrQ1701 : 05-15-2008 at 01:03 AM.
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  #18  
Old 05-14-2008, 04:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrQ1701 View Post
Pestalence, I can not tell if your entire post was sarcastic or if you believe that B.S. There is so much wrong with what you just posted I do not have the time to take it apart piece by piece. Are you sure you live in the United States? I will log on tomorrow and take this one on.
I am from Itialian decent, but I was born, bread, and raised American (3rd generation), with American Pride and American values.

My wife is of Mexican decentbut she too was born in America (1st generation), , with American Pride and American values.

Her dad was an Illegal Alien.. got deported 2 times and then finally went through legal channels.. He's been an American Citizen for over 28 years now. If he had gone through legal channels the first time, he would have never been deported.

My post is not sarcastic. My post is point blank..

I am a Right Wing Conservative Republican, a Christian one at that, who believes in all else keeping America.. well America.

Yes this country was founded by many different nations.. THEN we became our own nation.. We welcome everyone into this country, and I advocate for that.. But we also made LAWS for becoming a citizen or even to visit the USA. I have no problems with immigrants So long as they go through the proper LEGAL channels..

Those that want to sneak in.. I have no pity for them because they hurt the economy of the country I love.

As for speaking, reading, and writing English..

What language is used in schools, not taught, but used.. through out school and college.. ENGLISH

You also have many years of English classes in school.

Road signs are written in English.

Car manuals are written in English if your car is bought in America.

Texas is switching over to English Only in both Dallas and Houston for government.. not many government offices like Drivers license, Tax office, Courthouses, etc have any Multiple language papers anymore. The local printers are printing English only.

Businesses should be English only.

I'm an American.. I did a job down in Miami, Downtown.. I couldn't order a thing from any American restaurant because I could not speak Cuban.. Nothing but Cuban employees and Cuban patrons, and not a lick of English..

Yet they could speak English if they wanted too.. my skin just wasn't brown enough when I was down there. If English was the law for businesses.. there would not be any problems like that in America.. that is not unless you like being closed down.

If I go to Mexico, I speak Spanish.. I can speak Spanish just fine.. but in America, I use English.. Mexico I use Spanish. Panama I use Portuguese. In Italy, I use Italian. I use the language most common of the land, or the national language. It is the best way to communicate.. and since American Schools teach ENGLISH as the primary language, then English is the language of this land.

So yeah.. label me all you want.. but I do support what I stated above and in this post.
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  #19  
Old 05-14-2008, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pestalence_XC View Post
Too touchy a subject do discuss in detail.. the forum is not big enough for me to put down all the points for the discussion...
I decided I had to respond and sacrifice some sleep in order to do it. This is a very touchy subject and emotions may run high. I will attempt to keep mine in check. Discussion is beneficial no matter what the setting. I will learn from you and (hopefully) you will learn from I.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pestalence_XC View Post
but needless to say, Illegals of all nationalities need to be exported back to their countries of Origin. The United States should charge those countries for the Exportation in hopes of them increasing their own border security...
Many illegal immigrants ARE deported. I don't think it is realistic to hold their country of origin responsable for deportation costs, OUR government is sending them back so the debt is ours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pestalence_XC View Post
Illegals who want to stay in the US should have to pay back taxes to make up the difference that they leached off of us in Medicade, housing, and Food stamps based off a Lie Detector test or Sodium Penthenol to determine the actual ammount of time they have been in the US.. It is only fair.. I have paid taxes since I was 16.. Illegals have never paid taxes, and that is not fair the the American Citizen who live within the law. Illegals use our schools, roads, hospitals, the housing authority for homes, Foodstamps, and we pay for it, they don't.. and then they send money that could boost local shops and local economy over the border.. which hurts our economy..
You realize not ALL illegal immigrants draw on the benefits you state. I have no statistics, but like any group of people, you can not just lump them all together. The sodium penthenol or lie detector means for finding how long they have been here is just down right offensive. You can NOT be serious.

I agree that when illegal immigrants draw on social programs that there is unfairness against those that do pay into the system, but that does not make it right to just deny people basic needs. Many illegal immigrants DO pay taxes. What? Yes, they do. Of course this may just give you more ammunition, but many illegal immigrants work under false identities or stolen identities, they never see a refund like many of us do! I will not argue that makes everything okay, because it does not. Two wrongs do not make a right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pestalence_XC View Post
Housing and population is at critical levels in the US as well as imported drugs and weapons, which mainly come in to the US through either Dual Citizenship people or Illegals (not all but at least 72%)....
I believe there is PLENTY of housing to go around. There may be overcrowding in certain areas, but this is a big place we live in.

I agree. The flow of drugs crossing into the U.S. from Mexico must be stopped. I see the effects everywhere in my hometown. The flow of weapons (guns) actually goes the OTHER way. Guns are stolen or purchased here and then sent into Mexico to support criminal activity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pestalence_XC View Post
I do not disagree that they are hard working, but I disagree with the method of how they came by thier job. Anyone can enter the Untied States under a Visa or a Work Permit, or a Visitors Permit and then go through the process of becoming an American Citizen.. That way they get better pay, better medical benifits, their taxes goes into our Medicade, Medicare, Social Security, Roads, Schools, etc.. just like ours does..
You are right, but do you realize the costs involved or the waiting period for some to recieve paperwork? Have you ever lived a day of your life in a country like Mexico? Not the resort towns, but the impoverished areas? (I lived a year of my life in Iraq and much of what I saw reminded me of Mexico) If you have not then you have NO IDEA what people go through and why, to them, it is prefferable to cross illegally and to risk imprisonment in order to feed and clothe their families.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pestalence_XC View Post
Also banning companies, for example, Western Union, from doing out of country money grams would also help bolster local and national economics since the money would be much harder to send across the border. Banks should be injunctioned for the same thing.. in order for money to be sent out of the USA, you must be

1. A US Citizen or resident alien with valid work permit
2. Having a valid Social Security Number with a certified birth cirtificate.
3. Be able to read, write and speak english since the documents (hopefully legislation will pass this, it already passed in Huston, TX and Dallas, TX) are written in English only..
There are already laws that regulate international banking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pestalence_XC View Post
Finally sending money out of the country should be limited to no more than $400 a month per person. This way if a person who was Illegal, becoming a citizen, is making say $1200 a month, and they send most of their money out of the country, this would force them to either put it into an American Savings account or Invest it, or spend it in American businesses.. that would be $800 per person a month bolstering our economy instead ob bolstering another countries economy..
This is crazy. If a person earns $1200 a month he or she has the human right to do with that money as he/she sees fit. Illegal immigrants do spend money in american businesses. Where do you think they get their groceries or clothes? What about the cars they buy or any of a million other things.
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  #20  
Old 05-14-2008, 05:10 PM
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Ferrous Ferrous is offline
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Taking our jobs? I really frown on this argument since most illegals are put into menial jobs that while important, not many Americans would do. Where I live, you don't see very many non-hispanics scrubbing toilets, washing cars, clearing tables, or working in the fields. It isn't because they are stealing those jobs, it is because no one else will do them. Anyway, these topics always make me uncomfortable because there are no easy answers.
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