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  #21  
Old 04-20-2008, 06:36 PM
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What's kind of scary is that "home invasions" are happening in Albany, NY, where a few years ago most of us probably wrote that phrase off as NRA agitprop. Sure, for now the invasions are limited to the gang/drug dealer section of society, but for how long? The scary neighborhoods are only a dozen blocks from the normal neighborhoods!

I'm also not too sure about shooting some poor junkie for stealing my stereo. I've watched a few people lose their brains to smack or booze and although I might not want to socialize with them, I can still feel compassion for them.

Come after my kid, though, and that's a whole different story.
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  #22  
Old 04-20-2008, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by MrQ1701 View Post
I suppose i was trying to say that an assault weapon, in the hands of someone trained to use it, can help the odds if that person were in a situation against numerous armed criminals. I also must say I regularly go camping and an assault weapon would make a good defense against dangerous animals, for me personally anyway.



No, they are not designed for home defense, but if I wanted to keep one loaded and ready it would make one hell of a good defense. I do have the training and am comfortable with my abilities to accurately shoot, even in close quarters. But for most people they are not a good choice. Simple, easy to aim and fire is best. I also do not have to worry about shooting a neighbor if a round goes through a wall because my home has walls built like a fortress.

Keeping them, even assault weapons, out of the hands of law abiding citizens is my concern. People kill people, not guns. Bad safety practices and poor judgement kill people. The fact is as long as criminals steal guns and sell them on the street, the only people affected by any new laws are those that abide by them.
First, I'll say it's a pleasure to have a rational conversation with such an avid gun owner and proponent of gun owning rights, so my hat is off, sir.

All the good points you make above underscores mine: you say time and again how assault-style weapons are not good choices for the average home owner/home defender. You emphasize how well (perhaps expertly) you've been trained to handle such advanced weapons. You state clearly that poor judgement and safety practices get people killed.

But the "average" gun owner will not have the benefit of your military training in these weapons, nor the experience in using them safely and precisely... yet you advocate unrestricted ownership of such weapons to all legal gun owners?

Are not the rights to life and freedom from harm slightly more important than putting SPECIALIZED military weapons in the hands of average citizens who lack the training, experience and proper judgement to use them?

I cannot recall many recent news stories of homeowners defending themselves against multiple armed home invaders or hoards of wild animals while camping, but I can quickly look up news stories of campus and worksplace mass shootings of unarmed, innocent citizens at great loss of life due to assault weapons.

These guns exist for one reason: to kill many people quickly with little effort. And again I offer that more innocent lives have been taken by such weapons (outside of military action) than have ever been saved by their use from an average citizen in the name of self-defense.

At any rate, I've stated my point a couple of times so instead of belaboring it, I'll say thanks again for your civil discussion on the topic. We may disagree on some points, MrQ, but were all gun owners as well-trained and rational as you, lives would indeed be saved daily across the country due to nothing more than an increase in common sense.
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  #23  
Old 04-20-2008, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by MissionTrek08 View Post
First, I'll say it's a pleasure to have a rational conversation with such an avid gun owner and proponent of gun owning rights, so my hat is off, sir.

All the good points you make above underscores mine: you say time and again how assault-style weapons are not good choices for the average home owner/home defender. You emphasize how well (perhaps expertly) you've been trained to handle such advanced weapons. You state clearly that poor judgement and safety practices get people killed.

But the "average" gun owner will not have the benefit of your military training in these weapons, nor the experience in using them safely and precisely... yet you advocate unrestricted ownership of such weapons to all legal gun owners?

Are not the rights to life and freedom from harm slightly more important than putting SPECIALIZED military weapons in the hands of average citizens who lack the training, experience and proper judgement to use them?

I cannot recall many recent news stories of homeowners defending themselves against multiple armed home invaders or hoards of wild animals while camping, but I can quickly look up news stories of campus and worksplace mass shootings of unarmed, innocent citizens at great loss of life due to assault weapons.

These guns exist for one reason: to kill many people quickly with little effort. And again I offer that more innocent lives have been taken by such weapons (outside of military action) than have ever been saved by their use from an average citizen in the name of self-defense.

At any rate, I've stated my point a couple of times so instead of belaboring it, I'll say thanks again for your civil discussion on the topic. We may disagree on some points, MrQ, but were all gun owners as well-trained and rational as you, lives would indeed be saved daily across the country due to nothing more than an increase in common sense.
Thank you for your comments. I appreciate them very much.

I agree with you. And I'll explain. In New Mexico it is legal to carry a concealed weapon with the proper license. In order to qualify for the license one must take a gun course. I do not not know how many hours the course is, but it is usually held over the span of a weekend. This course can cost anywhere from $300 to $500 depending on the instructor. There is currently a long backlog for those wishing to take this course. I probably already have all the training that would be taught in this course, but I cannot get a concealed carry license without actually paying for this course as well as satisfying the instructor I know the subject matter.

I am open to the idea that in the wrong hands an assault weapon is very dangerous. Of course their very nature is dangerous, I mean an untrained person is more likely to unintentionally hurt someone with one. I do not believe any Tom, Dick, or Harry should be able to buy an assault weapon from a private owner without a proper background check. I would also be open to some sort of class being required in order to be eligable to purchase an assault weapon. I just wish there were a way for people, such as myself, to test out of said course and not spend $500 on it as it is most likely NOT going to teach anything new. I doubt a weekend course can teach what I have learned from numerous hours (Hundreds of hours if I were to do the math) at live fire ranges.

Thanks again for your comments.
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  #24  
Old 04-20-2008, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by jerhanner View Post
What's kind of scary is that "home invasions" are happening in Albany, NY, where a few years ago most of us probably wrote that phrase off as NRA agitprop. Sure, for now the invasions are limited to the gang/drug dealer section of society, but for how long? The scary neighborhoods are only a dozen blocks from the normal neighborhoods!

I'm also not too sure about shooting some poor junkie for stealing my stereo. I've watched a few people lose their brains to smack or booze and although I might not want to socialize with them, I can still feel compassion for them.

Come after my kid, though, and that's a whole different story.
I agree, I would not shoot a junkie if I caught him/ner stealing my car stereo. That would land a person in PRISON. But, if I were to confront a junkie as he/she were commiting the act of stealing my car stereo, I would shoot if he/her aimed a gun at me, or came at me with a knife or other hand held weapon (even a bat or tire iron can be lethal).

One thing to remember: Junkies do seek out "normal" neighborhoods as they tend to have more valuables to steal!
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  #25  
Old 04-20-2008, 11:53 PM
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I had a panhandler ask me for money because he said he was starving once. So instead of giving him money, i bought him a hamburger and a coke. He looked at me like i had lost my mind. He didn't want food, he wanted money. For what, i don't know and never will, but i'm going to guess drugs or booze. As far as i'm concerned, if someone's really hungry and i have it by me to feed them, i will, but i'm not buying anyone's thrills for them.
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  #26  
Old 04-21-2008, 02:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Berengarius7 View Post
I had a panhandler ask me for money because he said he was starving once. So instead of giving him money, i bought him a hamburger and a coke. He looked at me like i had lost my mind. He didn't want food, he wanted money. For what, i don't know and never will, but i'm going to guess drugs or booze. As far as i'm concerned, if someone's really hungry and i have it by me to feed them, i will, but i'm not buying anyone's thrills for them.
Same here. But usually once you "Hey, you looked hungry." Their attitude changes, then they are pretty receptive.
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  #27  
Old 04-21-2008, 09:41 AM
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I find this topic really interesting and it's nice to see a topic being well debated on this site. No one has added a Canadian perspective yet so as a Canadian with a firearms license I’m going to do so. In Canada firearms are regulated by the federal government and we have 3 classifications of firearms: Prohibited, Restricted and Non-Restricted. I have provided links for the full definitions but for a quick overview: Prohibited=Anything automatic and anything small enough that it's easily cancelable. There are some exception to the rule but a special permit is needed for anything in this classification of firearm and it mostly applies to collectors with older small handguns such as a Walther PPK ext. no one is going to get clearance to have any type of assault riffle other then active military personal and they will only be able to carry/use it while on duty. Restricted=Handguns and Non-Restricted=Rifles and Shotguns. To purchase any firearm in Canada you are required to have a Possession and Acquisitions license (PAL). To get a PAL you must first pass the Canadian Firearms Safety Course (CFSC) to be able to purchase non-restricted firearms and if you wish to purchase restricted firearms you must also pass the Canadian Restricted Firearms Safety Course (CRFSC). Both courses cost are about $300CND each and each course can be been done in one weekend, if you know the material that is covered in the courses you can go straight to the exam(s). Once you pass the exam(s) you can then apply for a PAL, the application process cost $85. When you apply for the PAL a pretty thorough background check is done which is conducted by the RCMP. If you pass the background check you receive your license in the mail a few weeks later and it is good for 5 years. To renew your license you just fill out a form and pay $85. I don't own any firearms so I'm not sure what the waiting periods are for purchasing weapons but the information can be found here. I do know from the course that there are pretty strict rules concerning the storage of firearms at home for example they must be unloaded, trigger locked or stored in a safe ext. Also if you own a restricted firearm and you want to take it to a firing range you must be a member of a firing range and only threw them can you get an Authorization to Transport which they get from the government which allows you to transport your firearm from your home to the shooting range and back. You also have to call the shooting range before you leave your home and they will give you the route to take for that day and you can not make any stops in between, they also give you a route to take home when you are leaving. It is virtually impossible to get a carry license in Canada unless you are a police officer or a security guard; also that license is only valid while you are on duty. Police officers do not take their service weapons home with them they are locked up at the station they work at. Currently all firearms in Canada also have to be registered but the government is in the process of changing that rule to only restricted weapons. Now that may seem like a lot of stuff to do but I personally think it is a good system. I’m not sure what the exact stats are but something like 98% of gun crimes committed in Canada are with illegally obtained firearms and a large number of those guns come from the US. I live in Toronto and the mayor is trying to petition the federal government to ban all handguns in Canada but the stats clearly show that legal gun owners are responsible and banning handguns will not solve the problem. Unfortunately the majority of Canadians are uneducated as to how our gun laws work and don’t know that almost all gun crimes being committed are with illegally acquired firearms. To the general public a gun is a gun is a gun. So MrQ1701 I agree with you some sort of system to better regulate firearms in the US should be implemented as it would not only improve things in the US but in Canada as well but I can’t agree with you on the automatic assault rifles issue or the concealed firearms issue. There really is no need to have a weapon of that caliber in a civilian home and there should be no need to carry a handgun with you to go shopping for groceries. I know this is long post but I hope it was informative.

Last edited by Enterprise Captain : 04-21-2008 at 09:56 AM.
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  #28  
Old 04-21-2008, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Enterprise Captain View Post
I find this topic really interesting and it's nice to see a topic being well debated on this site. No one has added a Canadian perspective yet so as a Canadian with a firearms license I’m going to do so. In Canada firearms are regulated by the federal government and we have 3 classifications of firearms: Prohibited, Restricted and Non-Restricted. I have provided links for the full definitions but for a quick overview: Prohibited=Anything automatic and anything small enough that it's easily cancelable. There are some exception to the rule but a special permit is needed for anything in this classification of firearm and it mostly applies to collectors with older small handguns such as a Walther PPK ext. no one is going to get clearance to have any type of assault riffle other then active military personal and they will only be able to carry/use it while on duty. Restricted=Handguns and Non-Restricted=Rifles and Shotguns. To purchase any firearm in Canada you are required to have a Possession and Acquisitions license (PAL). To get a PAL you must first pass the Canadian Firearms Safety Course (CFSC) to be able to purchase non-restricted firearms and if you wish to purchase restricted firearms you must also pass the Canadian Restricted Firearms Safety Course (CRFSC). Both courses cost are about $300CND each and each course can be been done in one weekend, if you know the material that is covered in the courses you can go straight to the exam(s). Once you pass the exam(s) you can then apply for a PAL, the application process cost $85. When you apply for the PAL a pretty thorough background check is done which is conducted by the RCMP. If you pass the background check you receive your license in the mail a few weeks later and it is good for 5 years. To renew your license you just fill out a form and pay $85.I don’t own any firearms so I’m not sure what the waiting periods are for purchasing weapons but the information can be found here. I do know from the course that there are pretty strict rules concerning the storage of firearms at home for example they must be unloaded, trigger locked or stored in a safe ext. Also if you own a restricted firearm and you want to take it to a firing range you must be a member of a firing range and only threw them can you get an Authorization to Transport which they get from the government which allows you to transport your firearm from your home to the shooting range and back. You also have to call the shooting range before you leave your home and they will give you the route to take for that day and you can not make any stops in between, they also give you a route to take home when you are leaving. It is virtually impossible to get a carry license in Canada unless you are a police officer or a security guard; also that license is only valid while you are on duty. Police officers do not take their service weapons home with them they are locked up at the station they work at. Currently all firearms in Canada also have to be registered but the government is in the process of changing that rule to only restricted weapons. Now that may seem like a lot of stuff to do but I personally think it is a good system. I’m not sure what the exact stats are but something like 98% of gun crimes committed in Canada are with illegally obtained firearms and a large number of those guns come from the US. I live in Toronto and the mayor is trying to petition the federal government to ban all handguns in Canada but the stats clearly show that legal gun owners are responsible and banning handguns will not solve the problem. Unfortunately the majority of Canadians are uneducated as to how are gun laws work and don’t know that almost all gun crimes being committed are being illegally acquired. To the general public a gun is a gun is a gun. So MrQ1701 I agree with you some sort of system to better regulate firearms in the US should be implemented as it would not only improve things in the US but in Canada as well but I can’t agree with you on the automatic assault rifles issue or the concealed firearms issue. There really is no need to have a weapon of that caliber in a civilian home and there should be no need to carry a handgun with to go shopping. I know this is long post but I hope it was informative.
Gun regulation is a great concept in both countries.

But most regulation keeps them out of the hand, or at a minimum makes it really complicated and hard, for an average citizen to get a firearm.

What we should be targeting more is the illegal gathering and sale of weapons. It's usually the criminal element that shoots people, not the person down the street.

Granted I think having an assult rifle for home protection is nuts. But if the goverment starts telling (for those in America, not sure how the Canadians work these things) people what arms they can have, that is a violation of one of our most sacred rights. It never just stops with a certain kind of weapon.

In this age of dwindling rights, and rising crime, we should be more about responsible gun ownership over what kinds of weapons are/are not ok.
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  #29  
Old 04-21-2008, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Zardoz View Post
Gun regulation is a great concept in both countries.

But most regulation keeps them out of the hand, or at a minimum makes it really complicated and hard, for an average citizen to get a firearm.

What we should be targeting more is the illegal gathering and sale of weapons. It's usually the criminal element that shoots people, not the person down the street.

Granted I think having an assult rifle for home protection is nuts. But if the goverment starts telling (for those in America, not sure how the Canadians work these things) people what arms they can have, that is a violation of one of our most sacred rights. It never just stops with a certain kind of weapon.

In this age of dwindling rights, and rising crime, we should be more about responsible gun ownership over what kinds of weapons are/are not ok.
I agree with you that more resources should be put towards eliminating illegal activities with firearms in both Canada and the US but I also feel stronger gun control in the US would help to cut down on illegal activities with firearms in both countries. I'm only going by the information I have read here in this thread and from what I've heard but it sounds like it's pretty easy to acquire a firearm in the US. It also appears the reason it's so easy to get a firearm in the US steams from it being a conational right to own a firearm. I'm sure gun running from the US to Canada pays pretty and I feel if it weren't so easy to get a firearm in the US perhaps less people would be gun running. The whole thing is complicated and my view is going to vary because the ideology behind US and Canadian firearm laws are different because in Canada it's a privilege to own a firearm which must be earned. Also if you read my post you would know that the Canadian government does regulate what firearms Canadians can buy.

Last edited by Enterprise Captain : 04-21-2008 at 10:59 AM.
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  #30  
Old 04-21-2008, 10:32 AM
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TM2-Megatron TM2-Megatron is offline
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Living in Canada and being quite left-wing (which, on the U.S. spectrum, would probably send me flying right off the chart, lol), I personally don't feel people should having personal firearms. Certainly not handguns... hunting rifles and so forth are a bit different, I guess. I've never held with the justification that allowing people the right to bear arms and indiscriminately shoot eachother is viable, since it allows them to defend themselves against gun-toting criminals. You seem to be able to buy a weapon in the states regardless of any skill you may or may not have in using the device; personally I really wouldn't trust most people with handguns unless they'd undergone extensive training.

That said, if we ever manage to develop coherent particle weapons with a reliable stun-only power level... I'd be more than happy to have one in my house, lol.
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