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  #31  
Old 03-31-2008, 06:09 AM
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You totally evaded and ignored the most important part of my questions, Chris. I do not ask rethorical questions, to ensure you on that:

What is a comunity value? And of what comunity do we talk? Your comunity, my comunity, the U.S. comunity? Are the U.S. a comunity anyway? The western world? The human comunity?

HOW do we agree on comunity values? A public panel with democratic representation of all the members of this obscure comunity?

Whats the result of this comunity values? Laws, fines? How do we enforce this comunity values on the ones that do not agree on them?

I would be pleased to get some answers from you on that matter.
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  #32  
Old 03-31-2008, 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by FanWriter45 View Post
Yes, monogamy is the answer! It's all the fault of those evil promiscuous people... and uh, introveineous drug users... and blood transfusions... and...

The problem here is, you think the disease cares about your moral stance.

It doesn't.

All it wants to do is transfer from one bloodstream to another. I've heard this argument before... AIDS would disappear overnight, if gays stopped having sex! Or if people refrained from anything deviating from the missionary position with the lights off! It's all a bunch of BS.

So, what if we redefined "monogamy" to include swing groups who have all had their six month STD panels done? Wouldn't a group of, say, 20 people, all having sex with one another, but still not going outside that group, be just as safe as two? If that's the case, then isn't your pushing monogamy (the two partner only system) just your attempt to limit other people's freedom of sexual expression?

I've lost far too many friends to this insideious plauge. And to ad insult to injury, we had to put up with messages from the religious right telling us that it's "God's judgement" upon us. Now to hear people STILL talking about how the answer is to just limit other people's freedom just infuriates me.

We know what causes it. We know how it's transmitted. There are simple, cheap countermeasures that will slow, stop, and reverse the rate of people being infected. If anything will stop the spread of AIDS, it's more and better sex education, and the use of safer sex techniques. (condoms, rubber gloves, dental dams)
Fan-

People, in general, need to blame things on someone. You and I are saying the same things here.

If you take on moralistc approcahes, like you did in your post, you'll just make them dig deeper into their opinons.

Do I think they have a wrong veiw, yes o yes!! But if we start flaming at them, does that make us any better?

I would liek to think like minded people like us are above a few insults hurled by uneducated/uniformed people.

The challenge for us is to inform people, not condem them. They have just as much right to their lifestyle as we have to ours. I don't agree with it, but they do.
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  #33  
Old 03-31-2008, 06:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FanWriter45 View Post
Yes, monogamy is the answer! It's all the fault of those evil promiscuous people... and uh, introveineous drug users... and blood transfusions... and...

The problem here is, you think the disease cares about your moral stance.

It doesn't.

All it wants to do is transfer from one bloodstream to another. I've heard this argument before... AIDS would disappear overnight, if gays stopped having sex! Or if people refrained from anything deviating from the missionary position with the lights off! It's all a bunch of BS.


A disease cannot care about anything. It is not a being with the power to make thinking choices.

The question remains would monogamy if adopted by society reduce the spread of aids?

I am sure you have heard a lot of things directed at gays but that is no reason to read more into my question. This is not a personal attack.

There are many ways in which aids is spread. Being transmitted sexually is the most common. If you disagree on that point then i would understand you position. If you acknowledge that then i don't.

Therefore there are ways in which we need to consider how we can curb aids being spread sexually. Using condoms is one and nobody seems to take offence. Monogamy however seems to cause great offence yet it does not mean no sex.

Before i come back and explain what i mean when i refer to community and obligation wether you disagree or not does any else not understand what i mean by that concept?

Ultimately let me say as we discuss this. Were friends here, just friends who on some things may disagree.
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  #34  
Old 03-31-2008, 07:03 AM
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Chris-

There was alot of scrcam/humor in Fan's reponce. The part you quoted was just that.

Chris, see my responce, we all have the right to our opinons, but none of us has the right to force it on others. We should be tolerant of each other, just as you pointed out.

Monogamy is trying to use a intelectual concept to battle a disease.

It is the same as saying, "Doing jumping jacks backwards will reduce cancer." A great idea maybe, since we need more exersise, but it does not reduce or stop disease.

But i do understand what your saying, but humas as a whole, won't stick to the ideas you laid out, oh they might say they will, but they won't.
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  #35  
Old 03-31-2008, 08:25 AM
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Okay then. The answer is: "no."

Monogomy will not stop the spread of AIDS. Simply because there is no way to insure 100% compliance, short of establishing a sex police, and severely punishing any offender. (See: "The Handmaid's Tale") It might slow it down, but by mandating monogamy, you will push the alternatives underground, and the disease will flourish in a world of secrets, fear, and exclusion.

If you feel monogamy is the way to go, then fine. That is a personal choice. In fact, the only way to really stop the spread of AIDS is to educate yourself, and not act stupidly in regards to your sex life. This is also a personal choice.

However, forcing monogamy on people is NOT a personal choice. That road leads to something far darker and destructive than the disease itself.
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  #36  
Old 03-31-2008, 08:40 AM
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To put this argument into "Star Trek" terms, Chris is advancing the theory that those who are non-monogomus are "not of the body."
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  #37  
Old 03-31-2008, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by FanWriter45 View Post
Okay then. The answer is: "no."

Monogomy will not stop the spread of AIDS. Simply because there is no way to insure 100% compliance, short of establishing a sex police, and severely punishing any offender. (See: "The Handmaid's Tale") It might slow it down, but by mandating monogamy, you will push the alternatives underground, and the disease will flourish in a world of secrets, fear, and exclusion.

If you feel monogamy is the way to go, then fine. That is a personal choice. In fact, the only way to really stop the spread of AIDS is to educate yourself, and not act stupidly in regards to your sex life. This is also a personal choice.

However, forcing monogamy on people is NOT a personal choice. That road leads to something far darker and destructive than the disease itself.

Great point that is worthy of it's own theread there Fan!
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  #38  
Old 04-01-2008, 07:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Fawkes View Post
If society took the view that monogamy was consistent with reducing the spread of aids: (recognising that it is not always but mostly sexually transmitted).

A/ Would it?

B/ If so is monogamy an obligation on us for the consideration of the community at large?

C/ If so (again) is marriage whilst not always perfect the best medium to bring this valuse into sharper focus?

The biggest weapon against aids is abstinence (works every time) until marriage (to one person), and knowing your prospective spouse well enough to be certain he/she is honest with you about his/her history.
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Last edited by SouthernSpockette : 04-01-2008 at 07:54 AM.
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  #39  
Old 04-01-2008, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by SouthernSpockette View Post
The biggest weapon against aids is abstinence (works every time) until marriage (to one person), and knowing your prospective spouse well enough to be certain he/she is honest with you about his/her history.

Good points also there. Most folks do not have the strength for abstinence, myself inculuded.

I feel it's more of using proper protections (as Fan mentioned) and getting checked periodically. Life should be about enjoying one's self, and one's sexuality.
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  #40  
Old 04-01-2008, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Fawkes View Post
If society took the view that monogamy was consistent with reducing the spread of aids: (recognising that it is not always but mostly sexually transmitted).

A/ Would it?

B/ If so is monogamy an obligation on us for the consideration of the community at large?

C/ If so (again) is marriage whilst not always perfect the best medium to bring this valuse into sharper focus?
A/ Just because a group of people believe something doesn't make it so, the theory would have to be tested.

B/ Can not be answered with out A being answered.

C/ Can not be answered with out A & B being answered.

As for the question that is in your title which is different for the 3 part question you posted "Is monogamy the greatest weapon against aids?"

A: Unknown. A study would need to be conducted to find out.

You really need to be clear with the wording you use when posing questions or ideas for debate "Is monogamy the greatest weapon against aids?" is a yes or no question and yes or no questions can not be debated. "If society took the view that monogamy was consistent with reducing the spread of aids" This is a "what if" question therefore it can't be debated. What you have done here is purposed a theory/sated a hypothesis so the burden of proof falls on you to prove it to me and the rest of the folks here with the evidence that you collected that it is true. The folks here have decided to read between the lines and debate: should society enforce monogamy in order to slow down or stop the spread of AIDS. By reading your posts it appears that you have taken a yes position in this debate but have neglected to show why enforcing monogamy would be helpful in slowing down or stopping the spread of AIDS. When anyone has given a possible reason for why it wouldn't work or why society shouldn't interfere with peoples freedoms you tell them that's not the question being asked the question is "Is monogamy the greatest weapon against aids?" If that is your question it can not be debated and there is no point to this thread.

Last edited by Enterprise Captain : 04-02-2008 at 04:39 AM.
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