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  #11  
Old 09-10-2013, 11:14 PM
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Yagami Crewman Yagami Crewman is offline
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Originally Posted by kevin View Post
Relative to what he 'should' have done Marcus' actions are clearly wrong. That isn't in dispute. The point is why he believes his way is the best way for the Federation. He has his reasons for making his choice and his point of view. And which lines he's willing to cross in the pursuit of those views.
No one ever considers themselves 'evil' Every notorious figure in history considered his own actions justified. The point is NOT that Admiral Marcus feels justified, but to explain to the next generation of Admirals, Captains, and officers WHY it does not matter what he thought. That at the end of the day it is RIGHT to be prepared but WRONG to be the one to go looking for a fight. That there WAS a legitimate need to improve defenses but not a need to lie to the Government. "By their deeds ye shall know them." I don't think any more needs to be said about Admiral Marcus than that.

As for leaving the 'hippies' in charge... We actually got that in the early years of TNG: Witness the Galaxy Class. Huge starships carrying families into areas where untrained civilians and children do not belong. Great statement of culture but a lousy statement to potential enemies. Colony ships are one thing. (I consider Kelvin acting in support of a colony effort. One reason for the huge number of shuttles...) Patrolling the Romulan border or dealing with the Borg are another matter entirely. This unrealistic approach would cost heavily in incidents such as the loss of the Yamato. (Imagine if the Enterprise-D had been in service during First Contact *shudder*)
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  #12  
Old 09-11-2013, 12:25 AM
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Precisely..........Marcus and Sloan do not view themselves as 'evil'. They believe they are doing what is necessary to protect the Federation. But how they do that, how that manifests, is by choosing courses of action which seem to run contrary to the outward presentation of Federation values and ideals.

It's covert foreign policy.

And the lessons of foreign policy do not get learned (going back decades, centuries even in some cases) and repeat themselves. This is why Kirk's lesson remains of value. His speech may be relatively simple sounding but the simple lessons are the ones that can be easiest to forget and constantly need to be relearned (in drama as in life...........we all forget and have to be reminded). To regain a measure of focus when it's easy to lose sight of it.

This applies retrospectively. Admirals in Trek seem a generally conniving crowd. They don't seem to learn their lessons at all. Dougherty follows Pressman follows Nechyev follows Jameson follows many others. All of whom chose to take a path contrary to what the Federation is supposed to be about. All their actions cost lives in and outwith Starfleet. Not all of them seemed to pay a price and none of their actions deterred other Admirals from their own machinations.

We don't even know what happened in Starfleet when the likes of Pressman and Dougherty were exposed. In fact.......to what degree were they even exposed?
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  #13  
Old 09-11-2013, 03:34 AM
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First, from a real-world perspective there is the issue of television as short-story instead of a novel, i.e. we do just get a few snapshots and not the entire picture so we often (I only remember that Pressman faced court martial) do now know what happened after an Admiral violated the law.
Second, there is the not-so-nice point I made some time ago about Section 31 being the dark underside of the Federation. Like in the real world many people are basically fine with some nasty sh*t being done by the military as long as the fascade which helps you to pretend that everything is fine and dandy is intact. In short, the UFP is hypocritical.
While especially DS9 with Red Squad, Leighton, Ross and S31 hinted at this TNG already made some suggestions along these lines; e.g. when Pressman was arrested by Picard he said that he has "a lot of friends at Starfleet Command". Of course he could just be lying in order to deter Picard but he did after all not act alone.

So I think that the supposed utopian Trek has often portrayed the frequently occuring abuse of power of the military in a fairly realistic fashion.

About Nechayev, I think she qualifies (unlike Marcus) as hawk proper but not as criminal. Sending Picard on a secret ops mission into Cardassian space or wanting to use Hugh as a weapon are debatable decisions but in my opinion they are definitely not criminal or clearly wrong.
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  #14  
Old 09-11-2013, 05:56 AM
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Of all the admirals we see, it's Admiral Ross who proves the most disappointing. We are led to believe he stands for the same values our heroes do and then comes 'Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges' We find him not only not opposing Section 31, but working hand in hand with them to topple an erstwhile ALLY! And yet we end up having to watch him get away with it and we still rely on him to command the war against the Dominion.

This is the real tragedy of Pike's death. We need someone like Pike not baby sitting Kirk, but fighting for the soul of Star Fleet. It's Great to have Captains like Kirk and Picard who never give up being Captain so they can 'make a difference' but we needed Pike to set policy that makes sense and upholds the values of the Federation as it should aspire to and to be in a position to fight those of Marcus' kind before they get so far.
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Old 09-11-2013, 12:47 PM
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Here is Admiral Marcus in a nutshell, as expressed by another great ficticious character:

"You can't handle the truth! Son, we live in a world that has walls. And those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives...You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall. You need me on that wall.
We use words like honor, code, loyalty...we use these words as the backbone to a life spent defending something. You use 'em as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it! I'd rather you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to!" -Col. Nathan Jessup, USMC
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Old 09-11-2013, 05:19 PM
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To rebut the good Colonel, the part that he forgot about while feeling all self important...

We were supposed to fight for the people who couldn't fight for themselves. We were supposed to fight for Willie. Lance Corporal Harold Dawson

Marcus forgets the same thing. He and Jessup are prepared to fight like rabid weasels to protect their respective nations while at the same time they hold the very governments and people they are supposed to be protecting with contempt.
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Last edited by Yagami Crewman : 09-11-2013 at 05:25 PM.
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  #17  
Old 09-11-2013, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yagami Crewman View Post
To rebut the good Colonel, the part that he forgot about while feeling all self important...

We were supposed to fight for the people who couldn't fight for themselves. We were supposed to fight for Willie. Lance Corporal Harold Dawson

Marcus forgets the same thing. He and Jessup are prepared to fight like rabid weasels to protect their respective nations while at the same time they hold the very governments and people they are supposed to be protecting with contempt.

Exactly!
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  #18  
Old 09-11-2013, 10:38 PM
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See, and that's just the kind of man that makes me want to show off my arrogant, intentionally ignorant lack of patriotism. To spit on honor, 'code', loyalty and all that gobbledegook. How it must stick in their craw, if only you could do it effectively. Figure out all the right words to express that you have the audacity to enjoy your freedom but not give a damn about people who think they're the ones providing it for you.
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  #19  
Old 09-11-2013, 11:13 PM
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On a more relevant note, I agree that's probably how the character thinks.

(And you know, as Tom Cruise movies go that was a damn good one)
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  #20  
Old 09-12-2013, 02:39 AM
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Nothing wrong with that but I think it is even better to reappropriate words like patriotism and honour from people who drew them through the mud. To remain within Trek, Kirk is the proper patriot, not Marcus. A guy who kills his own people has no right to use any of these words.
The advantage of this is that the enemy cannot play the "look at these dishonourable scumbags who do not love their country" game, i.e. you do not surrender any (ideological) territory to them.
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