[Zardoz]

Hmmmm why not start a new religion...The Trekians!! LOL!!!!!!!!!!

[Saquist]

Originally Posted by Livingston

Picard: Some see it as a changing into an indestructible form, forever unchanging. They believe that the purpose of the entire universe is to then maintain that form in an earthlike garden which will give delight and pleasure through all eternity. On the other hand, there are those that hold on to the idea of us blinking into nothingness (Picard snaps his fingers), with all of our experiences and hopes and dreams merely a delusion.

Data: Which do you believe sir?

Picard: Considering the marvelous complexity of our universe, its clockwork perfection, its balances of this against that... matter, energy, gravitation, time, dimension, I believe that our existence must be more then either of these philosophies, that what we are goes beyond Euclidean or other "practical" measuring systems, and that our existence is part of a reality beyond what we understand now as reality.

I think it was an interesting look into religion in the world of Trek and I'd say that Picard is not only talking about Earth, he's talking about all the other worlds out there that must have so many religions of their own. I mean what Picard is talking about here seems to be questions religion, philosophy try to answer, maybe science will one day shine light on these 'meaning of life' questions, maybe our scientific knowledge, our reason and our logic will reason out the mysteries of life, the universe, but I don't think they've done that in three hundred years, so I think there'll be religions and philosophies that ask these questions and try to place ourselves in the grand scheme of things. Afterall, religion in many ways is institutionalized philosophy. I don't mean to take anything away from it by saying that but the questions and purposes that both philosophy and religion strive to fulfill are similar I think.

There have been statements on the forum as to an enlightened attitude but Picard was truely expressive in his enlightenment. He recognized the unprobable complexity of the universe and perhasps of life and contemplated the research he'd been apart of through most of his life. He respected those cultures out look and drew upon them. This is what made Picard a diplomatic genius. I don't think he shunned any ideal alongs these lines.

Janeway certainly showed that upbrining from the Federation standpoint lacked a spiritual perspective. Showing the path she took to save Kes was irrelevant to her in the end...it was the trust that struck her as enlightening. She discovered trust and amazingly it wasn't blind as most erroronously believe. Her trust was built up by the experience she had. She recognized that the evidence could only take you so far before you hit a brick wall.

Once you're on the other side of that wall you may see the path clearly and understand the processes to reach the goal the next time but she marveled at making the leap from uncertainty to trust and that best describes most religions to some degree. I thought that was a significant contribution to society which has become increasingly intolerant of the spiritual outlook.

[Botany Bay]

Originally Posted by FanWriter45

I wonder what Schodinger's Cat would think of that?

The dead or the living one?

I agree though that Star Trek totally lost the grip on those issues. The most obvious in Enterprise. Was there any epsiode dealing with religion or spirituality at all?

[Zardoz]

It's not so much an "intolerance of spirtual outlook" that it's a lack of freedom to choose one's spiratual outlet.

People are ill treated, and/or treated inferiorly if they do not subscribe to whatever religon is most popular in that timeframe.

If religon is a key to spirtitual enlightenment, each of us should find their own key in their own way, and not have others force keys on us.

[Elizadolots]

Wow....great responses. On Star Trek V, what got me was how Kirk blithely condemned this being as "not God" when, in fact, it apparently was a being of great importance to the Vulcans...after all, it was Vulcan prophecy that led Sybok to him. And, apparently, failing to be "God" meant the being was not to be listened to or re-introduced to society. It just seemed very arbitrary to me. Why not say "well, we can give you an escort out of here, sure"....

I think Star Trek might have gotten itself into trouble with the "omnipotent beings" it introduced. Believing in God in a universe which has Trelane and Q seems tricky to me (what is the distinction?).

I was brought up in a "science" household. My father was a nuclear physicist before he retired. I've never known a scientist who did not acknowledge the possiblity of "God". The reason being, scientists know quite well that science doesn't have the answers to some of the most basic questions. I find it's people who have a smattering of scientific knowledge who tend to "believe" in science.

[Botany Bay]

Originally Posted by Elizadolots

Why not say "well, we can give you an escort out of here, sure"....

Because you may prefer to not let an omnipotent creature loose that shoots people for just asking him a question (as this guy here):
http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=d7k2ZLKHwO0

PS:
http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=zqHfse...eature=related

[Chris Fawkes]

There are a lot of trekkies awaiting the imminent return of Shatner, does that count?

[Botany Bay]

Originally Posted by Chris Fawkes

There are a lot of trekkies awaiting the imminent return of Shatner, does that count?

Yes. I mean vodoo is a religion, isnt it.

[That Metal Beastie]

Religion vs. Science. Wow! That's a big one. Maybe the big one. I find it interesting when believers say science cannot explain everything so that's why they turn to faith. Well neither can religion.

The ultimate question is where/how/why did it all begin? This is a question that can be answered by neither religion nor science. To say everything comes from God begs the question 'Where does God come from?'. Neither science nor religion can explain 'first cause'. Furthermore we, finite beings that we are, cannot comprehend the infinite. Or so I believe.

'I believe the sea can play tricks on a man's eyes.' a pirate once said to an elf in an animated cookie comercial. The elf had said 'you've got to believe in something'.

Newtonian science was superceded by Einstienian physics which quantum physics has gone beyond. The more questions are answered the more questions arise and the truth(the truth?) of thr ultimate will remain beyond our grasp. This doesn't drive me to despair. It is what it is.

I accept and celebrate.

Until the Sisko returns...

[Chris Fawkes]

Originally Posted by That Metal Beastie

To say everything comes from God begs the question 'Where does God come from?'

I disagree. Physical things need to be made. God is a spirit there are no parts.

Not that i think the idea is to provide all answers but enough to trust the rest.
In that sense faith is not blind but actually based upon a series of other facts.

For example i would be able to say in relatively good faith that you are an educated individual.

The way you write and articulate yourself would provide the basis for me to make that conclusion.

In fact you may have only gone to the third grade, i don't know absolutely.

I think therefore that science and faith should be able to comfortably co exist.

The problem arises in that where real science does exist there seems to have emerged a plethora of pretenders clinging on like a dog turd refusing to be scrapped from the soul of the boot so to speak.

These pretenders then claim an authority similar to how the corrupt church exercised it over the ignorant masses one upon a time.

Easy for the masses, one can now just be right without the work of thinking. "Hey, it's science".

It's often groups like this who see religeon as a threat.