[Zardoz]

Originally Posted by Botany Bay

I cant remember, but I would guess one would have to check the episode again, where Worf arrives at DS9. Something tells me there was a small line about his sash, in the way that Sisko approved it or that Starfleet approved it, something along... but I really dont know for sure.

In the military I wasted my time in (German Air Force) everything deviating from the official uniform had to be approved by a certain office (as badges for instance). Some pilots had scarfs though, and as long as the superiors didnt complain about it...

PS: But religious symbols where not allowed, as long as not worn underneath of the shirt (as crosses and such).

I seem to rember a season 1 TNG episode that gave Worf leeway because he was the first Klingon serving in Starfleet. I could be wrong.

[wal]

Originally Posted by Elizadolots

I'd also like to mention that, while this is a topic I'm in favor of discussing, it's not really about relgion. Which is fine, I'm not against going off on a tangent, but I do want to make it clear that a whole heck of a lot of deeply religious people believe gay people were made by God and are to be loved and cherished just like everyone else. Also, a whole lot of people who behave horribly toward Gays aren't the least bit religious.

Ya know, it's true that religious folk thinks that homosexuality is nasty, but they aren't the only ones who think that. They are the only ones who get pigeonholed with that attribute. There are also a lot of non-religious folk who are tolerant of gays but considers their lifestyle deviant as well.

As for us religious, we are required to love our fellow man.
That's true tolerance.
But nobody- neither religious nor secular- is required to like, appreciate or approve of everyone's actions or behaviour.

[Botany Bay]

Originally Posted by wal

As for us religious, we are required to love our fellow man.
That's true tolerance.
But nobody- neither religious nor secular- is required to like, appreciate or approve of everyone's actions or behaviour.

And no one demands you to like, apreciate or approve everyones actions and behavior. But as you say yourself, as a religious person you are required to love everyone - EVERYONE.

So, do you love gays?

[wal]

Originally Posted by Zardoz

Like we've said before, it's a fear. A fear of what you don't understand. My brother is a major ****-fearing person. Why? Because he does not understand and his religous advisors tell him it's horrid.

And I think that you are very, very wrong about that mis-characterization.

Otherwise, all the hate, venom and intolerance and BIGOTRY that social "progressives" show towards Christians who have the verve to take a stand is fear- fear of what they do not understand.

I don't believe that for a second; I also take offense at such a hatefull notion.

What many seem to be unable to realize is that others have simply a disagreement of opinion.

Sure, we say that religion has caused wars and deaths for as long as religion has existed. But why have we ignored the millions upon millions that died under progressive ideals like socialism, commuism and environmentalism?

The way I see it, the leftist is just as arrogant, controlling and hate filled as the rightist. There is no "fear" of the unknown involved. It's merely difference of opinion.

The left dislikes how the conservative Christian takes biblical scripture as their own; the conservative detests how the leftist creates God in their own image.

[wal]

Originally Posted by Botany Bay

And no one demands you to like, apreciate or approve everyones actions and behavior.

Oh, if only that were true.

Originally Posted by Botany Bay

But as you say yourself, as a religious person you are required to love everyone - EVERYONE.

So, do you love gays?

Assuming that gays and straights are different.
But yes- I have friends that live the gay lifestyle. So what if they dislike some of my views as much as I dislike theirs?

[Zardoz]

Originally Posted by wal

And I think that you are very, very wrong about that mis-characterization.

Otherwise, all the hate, venom and intolerance and BIGOTRY that social "progressives" show towards Christians who have the verve to take a stand is fear- fear of what they do not understand.

I don't believe that for a second; I also take offense at such a hatefull notion.

What many seem to be unable to realize is that others have simply a disagreement of opinion.

Sure, we say that religion has caused wars and deaths for as long as religion has existed. But why have we ignored the millions upon millions that died under progressive ideals like socialism, commuism and environmentalism?

The way I see it, the leftist is just as arrogant, controlling and hate filled as the rightist. There is no "fear" of the unknown involved. It's merely difference of opinion.

The left dislikes how the conservative Christian takes biblical scripture as their own; the conservative detests how the leftist creates God in their own image.

If you took offense at comments I made about my own brother wal, that's your problem. He was an example.

I could say the same things about seme groups who call themselves Christians, but who are anything but. But I won't, becasue I do belive no one group in religous circles speaks for everyone.

You are right about socialism, commuism, let's not forget Democray, dictaorship, anarchy, ect too.

Environmentalism??? Did I miss that bloody war??? Did the Templar Knights particpate??

Your comment of, "left dislikes how the conservative Christian takes biblical scripture as their own; the conservative detests how the leftist creates God in their own image."

I find it so odd that people who belive in the same things (Eliza may have said this before)cannot even agree on what, or who it is they belive in, and how to belive and pay homage to the deity.

But wal, as allways, you are free to belive what you wish, this is a free society.

I have nothing against you personally, or your belief system at all.

But I do against the people who twist words of peace and tolerance to their own agaenda, and tell others that is how to live, while not praticing what they preach.

[Zardoz]

Originally Posted by wal

And I think that you are very, very wrong about that mis-characterization.

Otherwise, all the hate, venom and intolerance and BIGOTRY that social "progressives" show towards Christians who have the verve to take a stand is fear- fear of what they do not understand.

I don't believe that for a second; I also take offense at such a hatefull notion.

What many seem to be unable to realize is that others have simply a disagreement of opinion.

Sure, we say that religion has caused wars and deaths for as long as religion has existed. But why have we ignored the millions upon millions that died under progressive ideals like socialism, commuism and environmentalism?

The way I see it, the leftist is just as arrogant, controlling and hate filled as the rightist. There is no "fear" of the unknown involved. It's merely difference of opinion.

The left dislikes how the conservative Christian takes biblical scripture as their own; the conservative detests how the leftist creates God in their own image.

If you took offense at comments I made about my own brother wal, that's your problem. He was an example.

I could say the same things about seme groups who call themselves Christians, but who are anything but. But I won't, becasue I do belive no one group in religous circles speaks for everyone.

You are right about socialism, commuism, let's not forget Democray, dictaorship, anarchy, ect too.

Environmentalism??? Did I miss that bloody war??? Did the Templar Knights particpate??

Your comment of, "left dislikes how the conservative Christian takes biblical scripture as their own; the conservative detests how the leftist creates God in their own image."

I find it so odd that people who belive in the same things (Eliza may have said this before)cannot even agree on what, or who it is they belive in, and how to belive and pay homage to the deity.

But wal, as allways, you are free to belive what you wish, this is a free society.

I have nothing against you personally, or your belief system at all.

But I do against the people who twist words of peace and tolerance to their own agaenda, and tell others that is how to live, while not living by what they preach.

[Elizadolots]

I think the Munsters count because they were portrayed by human actors and were shown to have a child (okay….vampire lady and “built from scratch” Monster man somehow produced a werewolf…but hey, that was their business).

The Brady Bunch aired from 1969 through 1974. The Bob Newhart Show with Suzanne Pleshette aired from 1972 through 1978…so, Mike and Carol had been at it for two years before Bob and Emily Hartley.

I think it’s fair to tell people when they are behaving wrongly. If I hear someone making racist remarks, I don’t think I’m stepping on their toes to tell them I think it’s wrong to do. The problem with just accepting that “people freak out” on this issue is that puts them in the power position. If we all step back and say “oh, they have every right to raise a ruckus” then the ruckus raisers will be the only ones who get heard. I almost feel like we’re obligated to step forward and object to people flipping out over others living their lives normally. If we don’t, then eventually some group is going to decide something we do isn’t normal enough and try to stop us.

I say, throw everything on tv. Religion, homosexuality, bad language, EVERYTHING. And if something offends you, change the channel. We should all be able to believe what we want to believe, have the freedom to display our beliefs, and the freedom to choose to not agree with others beliefs.

I’m with you there. I’m constantly amazed by the people who seem incapable of changing the channel, leaving the theater or turning off the radio…

Good point. It seems to always be implied that if you "hate gays", you must be some sort of bible thumping literalist. Not always the case.

And, the other side of the coin: some people have the idea that Gays are, by definition, not religious. One of my gay friends was a Chaplain in the military for 20 years. Another frequently gives “guest sermons” at his church.

Since we’re on the Gay issue, I’d like to put forth that I do not believe sexuality is a “choice” or a “lifestyle”. I believe it is an ingrained drive which we have no real power to change or control. We can control how we act on it, we can control whether we act on it, but we cannot control our sexual attractions.

[Botany Bay]

Originally Posted by wal

Oh, if only that were true.

It is true, I can ensure you on that. I do not know any gay or atheist or agnostic who asks for religious approval - not a single one. I also have never heard a gay demand the pope to like him and I think most atheists give a damn what the pope or any priest or religious believer thinks about them.

All this people ask for is fair representation in the society and the right to not get harassed by people who want to "save their souls".

[trekgeekscott]

Originally Posted by wal

Otherwise, all the hate, venom and intolerance and BIGOTRY that social "progressives" show towards Christians who have the verve to take a stand is fear- fear of what they do not understand.

Well, truthfully most people want just that others be able to live their lives and not have Christians force their beliefs on others. Like same sex marriage... Why can't they marry? It makes no sense. No one is saying you can't have your beliefs. Just don't presume to force others to believe what you do.

And I think Star Trek does a great job trying to illustrate that point. They don't disparage religion, they have characters that are deeply spiritual in their own way and no one faults them for their beliefs other than to illustrate the differences in their belief systems.