[Elizadolots]

We've touched on religion in the threads about Gay characters in Star Trek. I thought it would be interesting to get a discussion going about just that issue: Religion in Star Trek.

I think, of necessity, this will also delve into the questions: Will we have religion in the future? or will Science provide al the "answers"?

As noted in the other thread, at least in TOS there seems to be an acknowledgement of a God, a Creator. However, I think each series looked at the issue in a different way.

[Botany Bay]

How could sience ever have all the answers? Wouldnt that make Poker a terribly boring game? If one has to blame religions for anything, then the arrogance to proclaim having all the answers. Irony that some people hope sience to just replace religion.

Religion was never a big topic in Star Trek and in the places it was the connotation was critical for the most part. What Star Trek was, was open minded to the possibilities and positive towards spirituality, faith and moral integrity.

ST:V is a fine example for that. Eventhough many fans dont like the movie for many reasons, I think its a classical Star Trek story. While being sceptical about religions, sects and spiritual comunities and their tendencies for fundamentalism and intollerence, our heroes keep an open mind nontheless.

[Elizadolots]

See...my description of Star Trek V has always been "They find God, don't like him, so nuke him"....Why did they nuke the God being? Because he couldn't measure up to Kirk's vision of a God that didn't require a starship.

[FanWriter45]

When you mention "religion" to people, they automatically assume you are talking about judeo-christian dogma. Such is not always the case. Religion, from the root latin relios, meaning "in relation to," is about how you define your place in the universe.

Trek seems to have an almost schizoid approach to religious belief. In one episode they will mention religion as something that most have left behind, in others they seem to take it as fact that judeo-christian beliefs are the one and only way to go. I think it really depended on the writer of the individual episode.

As such, Trek becomes like religion itself: you read into it what you want to, and ignore the rest.

Compare this to Star Wars, where the religion is actually the central theme. "The jedi are all but extinct, their fire has gone out of the universe, you my friend (Vader) is all that is left of their religion." Of course, it helps when your religion actually has some demonstrable effect: the ability to move objects, fortell the future, levitate, and so on. Heck, I'd probably convert if someone could show me proof of that! (This despite Christianity's legendary magic show of conjuring staffs into snakes, changing water into wine, stilling stormy seas, and creating Romero-like zombie revivals of the dead... I keep hearing how great this show is, but so far haven't seen any evidence of it that either Randi or Penn and Teller couldn't duplicate.)

[Livingston]

Personally I don't think science will ever provide all the answers and even if it could there will be those that turn away and ignore it. In order for Star Trek to happen, the world and all its religions, how they relate to oneanother, will have to change. It's the oldest conflict, more wars have been fought in the name of God than any other. Can we ever truly get over that, get past it? I'd imagine in the world of Trek that all the Earth religions are still being practiced or at least still around. I can't imagine that they would all pass into mythology in three hundred years. Another big question is how religious institutions would change with the appearance of an alien intelligence? The movie Contact dealt with that alot and I think alot of what was explored and depicted there had merit.

Certain races in Star Trek have their own religions. The Klingons have Khalesis, he certainly seems to be a religious figure, someone who shaped their civilization, gave it direction. I remember the TNG episode where Worf goes to the monastery on the planet Khalesis said he's return to. In DS9 the Founders portrayed themselves as gods, billions followed them, actually believed these changelings were gods.

It's a huge topic, I don't really know what to say, there's so much to say, just jumping around here, but there was an episode of TNG that I thought touched on religion a nice way. The Enterprise is stuck in this void and an alien intelligence is going to kill off half the crew to study death. Picard decides to blow up the ship and kill the whole crew rather than let that happen and they set the self destruct for 20 minutes and Picard is sitting alone in his quarters and Data and Troi come in and ask him about death and how humans cope with it, what they believe and he says:

Picard: Some see it as a changing into an indestructible form, forever unchanging. They believe that the purpose of the entire universe is to then maintain that form in an earthlike garden which will give delight and pleasure through all eternity. On the other hand, there are those that hold on to the idea of us blinking into nothingness (Picard snaps his fingers), with all of our experiences and hopes and dreams merely a delusion.

Data: Which do you believe sir?

Picard: Considering the marvelous complexity of our universe, its clockwork perfection, its balances of this against that... matter, energy, gravitation, time, dimension, I believe that our existence must be more then either of these philosophies, that what we are goes beyond Euclidean or other "practical" measuring systems, and that our existence is part of a reality beyond what we understand now as reality.

I think it was an interesting look into religion in the world of Trek and I'd say that Picard is not only talking about Earth, he's talking about all the other worlds out there that must have so many religions of their own. I mean what Picard is talking about here seems to be questions religion, philosophy try to answer, maybe science will one day shine light on these 'meaning of life' questions, maybe our scientific knowledge, our reason and our logic will reason out the mysteries of life, the universe, but I don't think they've done that in three hundred years, so I think there'll be religions and philosophies that ask these questions and try to place ourselves in the grand scheme of things. Afterall, religion in many ways is institutionalized philosophy. I don't mean to take anything away from it by saying that but the questions and purposes that both philosophy and religion strive to fulfill are similar I think.

[Botany Bay]

Originally Posted by Elizadolots

See...my description of Star Trek V has always been "They find God, don't like him, so nuke him"....Why did they nuke the God being? Because he couldn't measure up to Kirk's vision of a God that didn't require a starship.

No, eventhough your way of expressing it is really funny. The question of the film was, what legetimizes God as a ruler that we have to obey? Just because he is God? Doesnt every ruler has to be just? Kirk doesnt obey an unjust ruler, wether he may be a God or a chicken. Morale comes from within. And wether we like it or not, no belief, no religion and no community, no leader and no God can take the burden of decission and responsibility from our own shoulders.
Thats the very basic problem of modern philosophy as existentialism for instance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existentialism

[MissionTrek08]

Given how multicultural, multi-species "society" has become by the 23rd century, my guess would be that known religions (by then perhaps thousands of them) wouldn't have to change much by this time, but certainly our attitudes toward religions would change. I hesitate to use the word assimilation, but clearly in the universe GR created for the 23rd, humanity has surpassed many of its own traditions and bad habits of prejudice, intolerance, bigotry, greed and selfishness. Humanity is much more willing to look outward with open eyes, instead of clinging rigidly to dogma within.

One could argue religion gets diluted in such a multivariate universe, but it might also free up true religious belief from -- as wisely noted above -- the political and economic uses for it which we insist on inflicting upon our fellow humans of differing creeds.

In short, my guess is religion becomes a more personal choice, and in such an 'ecumenical' universe, will be readily accepted and appreciated as such a choice by others. If not real religious freedom, something much closer to it that what we practice in our actions and rhetoric today.

As for the notion of science "solving all the answers" for religion: I personally find this notion impossible by the very nature of the two elements themselves. By definition, the loose term 'science' can never even solve all the answers for science itself, so how can it possibly solve answers to questions of spirituality and faith -- two entirely non-empirical, unmeasurable quantities?

Science may provide answers to some temporal questions within our lifetime or within human history, but most theoretical and natural science begins falling apart rapidly when you throw "eternity" into the equation. The more science increases our understanding, the more unknowns it reveals to us beyond our current limit of understanding.

On the other hand, humans also seem to desire religion or spirituality (not necessarily the same things) or mythology, because these help us assign meaning and understanding of things which cannot be empirically answered. We seem wired to have some variable degrees of need, whether our myth meaning is derived from a God, or a story or a ritual.

For me, science and religion can overlap in their higher pursuits, but one need never cancel out the other. And it's only some humans who insist on making them competing enemies.

[Botany Bay]

Originally Posted by MissionTrek08

For me, science and religion can overlap in their higher pursuits, but one need never cancel out the other. And it's only some humans who insist on making them competing enemies.

Wich is irony. Scientists, that ask for proofs of religious beliefs; religious people, that act is if believe is knowledge. Scientists, who act as if there is nothing to believe; religious people who proclaim believe to be truth... if I have proof for any Gods existance my religion becomes obsolete, because now I know. The whole point about any belief is, that I do not know, but have to guess.

[FREAKAZOID!]

I do not know of we will always have religion, but I do believe there will always be faith.

Does that make any sense?

[FanWriter45]

I've always liked Neils Bohr's comment about God and religion: When asked if he believed in God, he replied, "What difference does it make? Even if God doesn't exist, you should still behave as though he does."

It still seems to me, going over the episodes in my head, that Trek tends to take multiple viewpoints on this issue. Not unlike today, with many different religions having many different viewpoints...

I hate to give credit outside Trek (see again the "Is Trek Losing It's Edge?" thread) but the episode of Bab 5 that delt with religion was pretty damn well done. Each of the world's involved presented their take on it as a sort of "multi belief week" on the station. The Earth commander was stymied as to how to present Earth's... until finally, he just had a reception line of reps from ALL of them at the presentation...

I forget which science fiction author first proposed it, but it might be a solution to the differences: quantum theology. Quantum physics leaves the door open to multiple universes (an infinite number, in fact) each with their own rules and history... So, perhaps in some sense, somewhere... ALL religions are equally true.

I wonder what Schodinger's Cat would think of that?