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  #31  
Old 05-28-2013, 01:41 PM
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I think it's because Marcus at some point in the film basically begins improvising because Khan takes his actions. He had an agenda that pre-existed but London and then the attack in San Francisco makes him change his plans a bit.

But what seemed odd to me was what Khan was expecting to have happen once he arrived on the Klingon homeworld.
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  #32  
Old 05-28-2013, 02:30 PM
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I think it's because Marcus at some point in the film basically begins improvising because Khan takes his actions. He had an agenda that pre-existed but London and then the attack in San Francisco makes him change his plans a bit.

But what seemed odd to me was what Khan was expecting to have happen once he arrived on the Klingon homeworld.
In my opinion… Marcus didn't need Khan at all. He could have simply loaded the photon torpedoes on the Vengeance and carried out the mission himself in complete secrecy, leaving Kirk to be the fall guy when the Klingons came looking… like in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country.
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  #33  
Old 05-28-2013, 04:38 PM
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Well. I saw the film today and I liked it. I feel like I need to see it again though because the story moves along at about 200 MPH, you literally never have a second to stop and digest what you're seeing.

I'm not sure about the casting of Khan. I think Cumbetbatch did a great job playing a genetically enhanced "Superman" character, he did a great job. But he never felt like Khan to me. It was more like one of the other genetically evolved humans. I just had hard time telling myself that this was Khan. For one thing, the original Khan had a certain sort of charm and finesse, this Khan seemed to be all menace all the time.

I am not so sure of Khan's plan here, apparently he figured out that Marcus would want Enterprise to use these new torpedoes on the Klingon homeworld and that was how he was going to smuggle his crew out. But how did he expect to get all 72 back safely?

I enjoyed the opening of the movie, I liked those aliens and that alien world. I'm not quite sure why they needed to put the ship underwater instead of in orbit but I'm willing to overlook that.
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  #34  
Old 05-29-2013, 01:59 AM
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Ok. Regarding the long range torpedoes why wouldn't they turn over the specs to Scotty? Section 31/Starfleet weren't aware Khan's crew was hidden inside them, correct?

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I believe so. Now, I can't recall what Marcus said about the torpedo's when he briefed Kirk and Spock about them in his office but if they were essentially secret equipment he may not have wanted non approved officers knowing too much about their operation. He wanted the ship to use them on a covert assassination strike in enemy territory, he didn't need the people on the ship to know their innards.

That's without being able to remember what exactly was said about them. But they were pretty much meant to be top secret tech and Scotty I think basically was not in a 'need to know' position. Despite being Chief Engineer. The secrecy around them is after all, supposedly why Carol Marcus forged her way aboard to find out what was special about them.

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I can't remember 100% either. I assume Khan thought Starfleet may use the "long range" torpedoes he was designing when he went to Qo'noS, no? How else was he planning to get his crew back? What I don't understand is why Khan would risk the lives of his crew then by leaving active warheads in those torpedoes. Or did he remove the warheads and then Admiral Marcus discovered what was going on and put the warheads back in them to kill 73 birds with one stone? If Admiral Marcus didn't know how those torpedoes worked it was pretty negligent of him to ship them to the Enterprise. Did Admiral Marcus not consider Khan may betray him? Also the warp core crapped out just outside the Klingon neutral zone, did we ever find out why? Was that just an unfortunate accident or was that sabotage?
No, Admiral Marcus knew that Harrison had hidden the 72 people in the torpedoes. He ordered Kirk to fire them at Harrison knowing that there were no warheads in them, relying on the explosions from the excess fuel in them to be enough to kill Harrison and draw the attention of the Klingons.

He didn't give Scotty the specs because a) the original torpedo is top secret, classified and probably illegal [probably similar to a tricobalt warhead] and b) presumably a cryo tube with a person in it weighs less than the warhead would, and Scotty, upon scanning it, would find a discrepancy between the apparent mass and the specified mass.

And Harrison explains clearly that his attacks were motivated by revenge against Marcus - once Marcus had discovered what Harrison was doing:

Quote:
"I had every reason to believe Marcus had killed every single one of my people."
People are talking about Harrison's weak motivation in the film. I personally thought that was a pretty powerful motivator.

He had no idea whether or not his people were still alive or not. He had no idea Marcus would have Kirk fire them at him. It was sheer dumb luck that Marcus formulated this plan and that Kirk disobeyed his orders (from Harrison's point of view).

His plan was simply to have Marcus or some other Starfleet person follow him into Klingon territory (knowing that he'd destroyed all records of transwarp beaming and leaving only one, broken device) and then a war would begin between the Federation and the Klingons. And Harrison would presumably provide assistance to the Klingons for further revenge against Marcus, and manoeuvre himself into a position of power once the war was finished.

That plan changed when Kirk revealed that not only were the torpedoes with his people inside intact, they were not in Marcus' possession. From there he had a new plan, improvisng as he went along.
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  #35  
Old 05-29-2013, 09:26 AM
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In my opinion… Marcus didn't need Khan at all. He could have simply loaded the photon torpedoes on the Vengeance and carried out the mission himself in complete secrecy, leaving Kirk to be the fall guy when the Klingons came looking… like in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country.
I think he wasn't looking for a fall guy, he was looking by that point to clear up all his loose ends whilst also getting his war.

Loose ends can talk and investigate (which kind of undid the plan in The Undiscovered Country..................well that and their plan didn't seem fully thought out either!) the things their left holding the bag on.
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  #36  
Old 05-29-2013, 09:32 AM
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No, Admiral Marcus knew that Harrison had hidden the 72 people in the torpedoes. He ordered Kirk to fire them at Harrison knowing that there were no warheads in them, relying on the explosions from the excess fuel in them to be enough to kill Harrison and draw the attention of the Klingons.
The second time I viewed it I made a conscious effort to pay closer attention to the progression of the various plans and I remember thinking that 'most' of it (within what seem to be usual Trek limits) kinda made sense in an in-universe way.

I still think there were fuzzy areas slightly and some it can likely be unpicked like the other films but my aged brain was getting itself switched around last night trying to remember everything said by all the characters about what was going on.
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  #37  
Old 05-29-2013, 09:55 AM
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Looks like I'm going to go see it again tonight. I will be paying more attention to stuff we've discussed. Things happen so quickly in this film that a second viewing feels like a must to try and catch everything.
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  #38  
Old 05-29-2013, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by kevin View Post
The second time I viewed it I made a conscious effort to pay closer attention to the progression of the various plans and I remember thinking that 'most' of it (within what seem to be usual Trek limits) kinda made sense in an in-universe way.

I still think there were fuzzy areas slightly and some it can likely be unpicked like the other films but my aged brain was getting itself switched around last night trying to remember everything said by all the characters about what was going on.
Ha! Well, I have seen it three times already. I was pleased with the consistency of each character's actions within the film... All the character motivations seemed to fit and when they made stupid decisions they were stupid for the right reason.

Not saying there weren't plot holes, but it was pretty good.
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  #39  
Old 05-29-2013, 02:36 PM
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I don't think Marcus knew that Khan's men were in those torpedoes. I think that was part of Khan's plan. He tells Kirk to open the torpedoes, and later says he is the one who placed those people in there. I think he anticipated the tactics the admiral would use, both against himself and to start the war with the Klingons. The only part I don't get was how he planned to safely get them out of there.
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Old 05-29-2013, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by kevin View Post
The second time I viewed it I made a conscious effort to pay closer attention to the progression of the various plans and I remember thinking that 'most' of it (within what seem to be usual Trek limits) kinda made sense in an in-universe way.

I still think there were fuzzy areas slightly and some it can likely be unpicked like the other films but my aged brain was getting itself switched around last night trying to remember everything said by all the characters about what was going on.
I don't think that's your age, they threw a lot at us very quickly!
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