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  #51  
Old 06-02-2013, 08:16 AM
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kevin kevin is offline
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Originally Posted by horatio View Post
But yeah, I still have the audacity to talk about it.


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You have not seen each and every VOY episode
I have to correct you there but that's inaccurate. I certainly haven't seen them all in some years, (I rewatched Seasons 1 and 2 and half of 3 earlier this year on rental I just remembered) but they were all viewed at least once when I had the whole series on VHS.

God................VHS...............

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ENT episodes
Does doing my best to completely erase 'These Are The Voyages' from my memory count?

There's one or two Season 4 ones I'll cop to possibly not having seen out of dozens produced, but a recent rebroadcast (although spotty schedule wise) of Season 4 by a UK channel plugged some of the gaps, even if doing so didn't actually change my thoughts on the show all that much. I had thought Season 4 was supposed to have 'righted' the ship but it didn't really feel that way even discounting the final episode. But having seen all of Seasons 1-3 and the bulk now of S4 I would imagine there's not going to be anything in the couple of episodes left to catch that will radically change anything.

So maybe it is six of one and half a dozen of the other.

Quote:
to know that you don't like the respective series and that whatever STRUCTURAL criticism you have applied to the episodes you know can also be validly applied to the ones you don't know (unless there is a structural break).
Structural issues with a series as a whole don't prevent the liking of individual episodes and moments within the series however. Even TNG has issues but there I'll put my hands up and say I'm looking at it at times through extremely rose tinted glasses. Glasses I don't possess for VOY or ENT certainly.

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So no idea why you claim that my opinion is irrelevant.
Given the criticism involved it's seemingly a fairer playing field if everyone is actually working from the position of having seen it. Otherwise, does that really seem like the basis of an even discussion of it?
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Last edited by kevin : 06-02-2013 at 09:17 AM. Reason: Yep, I forgot I had watched two and a half seasons of VOY. I think it's understandable though.
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  #52  
Old 06-02-2013, 09:06 AM
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horatio horatio is offline
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I have never seen a Michael Bay movie yet I know that these kind of movies are utter crap. I would even go so far and claim that the first "Dark Knight Rises"-ish poster for STID sufficed to tell that it will be as reactionary as ST09. Using the same visual style as this anti-democratic piece of crap (OK, I admit that I liked the third Nolan Batman flick for showing the truth of Batman: a rich fu*k beating up petty criminals at night instead of ruling his company during the day which has tanks in the basement ... but despite being a large Nolan fan reviews sufficed to convince me to not view the movie and when I finally watched it on the small screen my post-watch opinion did not differ from my pre-watch opinion) is not precisely subtle.

All I need to know about STID is stuff that I have predicated anyway, that is, like in the case of TDKR, publicly known and that folks on this board have told me. Watching it would change my mind as little as your watching of the parts of ENT you did not know before you made up your mind that it is crap and if the movie really differed in terms of acting, production values and general atmosphere from the previous one I would be all ears.

This all boils down to philosophic-ideologies differences, British empiricism vs. German idealism. I simply think it is possible to talk about something one doesn't know entirely to make ample of predictions and judgments about it and not just in this case but in general.

I do not enjoy having been right about my three predictions (Khan, another action flick, ample of fanwank) concerning STID. I'd rather be wrong like I was in the case of thinking that the remastering of TNG is neither feasible nor particularly beneficial as it would increase my enjoyment of Trek.
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  #53  
Old 06-02-2013, 09:19 AM
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Well, Nolan has a lot answer for because everyone is trying to mimic him now (even Skyfall owes a helluva lot to The Dark Knight) when it comes to large scale blockbusters, and I won't lie Star Trek Into Darkness falls slightly victim to this as well. Although I would disagree the film is ultimately reactionary itself. But I guess if you can't be convinced to watch a film in theatres from a director you do like there's really no chance of it happening for one from folks you don't.
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Last edited by kevin : 06-02-2013 at 01:00 PM. Reason: Does anyone else but me read these?
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  #54  
Old 06-02-2013, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by kevin View Post
Well, Nolan has a lot answer for because everyone is trying to mimic him now (even Skyfall owes a helluva lot to The Dark Knight) when it comes to large scale blockbusters, and I won't lie Star Trek Into Darkness falls slightly victim to this as well. Although I would disagree the film is ultimately reactionary itself. But I guess if you can't be convinced to watch a film in theatres from a director you do like there's really no chance of it happening for one from folks you don't.
At least Abrams is enjoying considerably more success than M. Night Shayamalanaramalamadingdong. After Earth barely sparked only at number three at the box office. If it sparked that low, chances are it won't even be in the top five by the next week. At least STID has thus far enjoyed three weeks in the top five, even if it has slipped to number four.
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  #55  
Old 06-02-2013, 07:18 PM
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I still find the plan of the Admiral to be a bit murky. If you have those torpedoes, why bother going through the song and dance of giving them to Kirk if you want them to disappear? Why not just quietly make them disappear? They build an entire Starship in secret, getting rid of 72 frozen bodies should be a cakewalk.

That's part of why earlier I thought maybe Khan had tricked him by hiding the bodies in the torpedoes without him knowing it.
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  #56  
Old 06-02-2013, 07:21 PM
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Oy, vey....

... over at imdb.com, there are some folks who are starting to get really sick and tired of hearing the term "true fan"...including myself.

I've dropped fandom of anything a long time ago. Fans are fine, but pretentiously self-titled "true fans"? They are the ones that give fandom a bad name, because if you really consider the definition of "true fan", it is synonymous with another term....."fanboy".




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  #57  
Old 06-02-2013, 10:01 PM
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Oh yeah, whenever that 'true fan' stuff starts up I just disregard the person saying it. Got zero interest in that entitled fanboy crap nowadays.

But some Trek fans are like that, and not even just regarding Abrams and Prime Trek. I think some of them did it back in the day when TNG began as well.
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  #58  
Old 06-02-2013, 11:45 PM
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Yeah, the distinction supposedly being that either you were a "true fan" by loving Trek from TOS on (and you were a Trekkie if you loved TOS only, and a Trekker if you loved all else, or anything but TOS).

True Fan is a mythical beast. And it happens among anything where there is a fandom involved...but still...it's a mythical beast. It is a self-aggrandizing descriptor of worthless pride, supposedly signifying some "elevated fan status", or as is more often the case, the "more fan than thou" syndrome.

But as someone over there wisely pointed out, ya' know, you have three basic eras of Star Trek... the Roddenberry Era, the Berman/Braga Era, and the Abrams Era. Different folks are going to love different things about Trek.

I never got what all the hubbub was about with the Berman/Braga Era. Lots of folks say they ruined Trek...and perhaps with the release of Nemesis, and the decline of Enterprise (which saw a bit of a respark when Manny Coto was brought on board), Star Trek was about to go on life support if not die a horrific death.

I do know one thing: It would seem that Nemesis was the start of the reversal of the trend of the "even numbered" Trek movies being the better ones. Now it would seem that the odd ones are starting to get their due with the release of Trek 2009. We shall have to see how a third film fares before that assessment can be fully evaluated.
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  #59  
Old 06-03-2013, 12:58 AM
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It's truly bewildering sometimes what you read.

No-one who ever created/wrote/produced for Star Trek in any era or format is necessarily above criticism (maybe apart from Bob Justman, as he always seemed to be on the ball when you saw him in interviews and in writing about how things should work on Trek and Harve Bennet seemed to keep things mostly ship-shape on the movie front in the 80s................I think some of these guys and gals (such as D.C Fontana and Jeri Taylor) often get forgotten about in the often louder discussions between who was better between Roddenberry/Berman, Braga/Moore, Abrams and everybody else that recur most often.............and lot's of other people apart from the big guns did good and bad work on it.

A few weeks back (I think around the time Star Trek Into Darkness was opening) I was browsing the old interweb to get a picture of what the general critical reception of Into Darkness seemed to be and all of these sites have their own comments feature now. I can't remember what site it was (may have been Deadline Hollywood) and you have the usual mix of comments from those fans that loathe Abrams and those fans who either love him or simply are in the middle ground.

And there was one comment, it was the usual 'Abrams is a hack', 'He's ruined Trek' (I'm paraphrasing but you get the gist) that's been regurgitated a thousand times before and then the person came up with their idea for saving Trek and getting it back on track. Now, I guess this could be taken with a pinch of salt because do you ever really know who is seriously posting on the net and who isn't on certain sites but let's assume for a second they were genuine and meant it..................

Their best idea was to go back to making movies with the TNG cast, not even just making a fifth, but continuing the whole TNG franchise with even more films after that. Their other suggestion was a film based on any (or all, they didn't seem to mind) of the other TV shows.

How can you answer that? Tell the person to take a look at the ages of the TNG cast now and truly take a long hard look? They're right there on the new TNG Blu Ray interviews. That ship has long since sailed away over the horizon. Let alone movies based specifically around VOY. DS9 or ENT.

Nemesis was the kill switch on the film franchise that was, no doubt at all. ENT's culpability on the series front is more heavily debated for sure but I don't think it's as good as it's more ardent supporters believe it is. But Trek is, I think, still trying to find out where it fits in now after that phase of the franchise consumed itself. Abrams & Co may not be the long term answer, but for now they're giving it a go.

Their work to this point is in my opinion certainly no dumber (or necessarily smarter) than countless examples of previous Star Trek that I could list (in film and in TV) but whether the franchise is overall picking itself up again is, I think, still a question mark to be answered over a bit more time yet.
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  #60  
Old 06-03-2013, 01:22 AM
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Well told, friend Kevin, in all respects. We are agreed.

You have won the Lord Martok "Seal of Approval"




And as always stated before, taste is subjective. There are lots of folks out there who feel that Star Trek V: The Final Frontier is probably the greatest thing since sliced bread, when, universally, it's panned as one of the worst Trek films ever made.

So, as with any Trek films, you're gonna have your lovers, and your haters. But when the hate is brought on as a result of that empty designation of "true fan", as if "true fan" gave any further legitimacy or weight to one's opinion, that is when one must simply look on them with...


and then with pity....because when they apply their logic to the whole mess, they're expecting this from the supposedly unwashed masses :





But what they really oughtta be doing is this:

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