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  #91  
Old 06-04-2013, 03:05 PM
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Just a little observation here, getting back Into Darkness...

STID Khan kicked more *** in two minutes than classic Khan did in Space Seed and TWoK combined.

And he had intellect to back it up.

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  #92  
Old 06-05-2013, 01:33 AM
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So I saw the movie a second time finally and something irked me really bad: When Spock and Khan were "negotiating" terms with each other, Spock said something about Khan's goals to institute a policy of Genocide against inferior races. Did I miss something, or was there ever any mention of such things happening under his Reign? From what I remember, Khan would suppress civil rights, but he wouldn't instigate mass murders. Was Spock assuming that Khan was going to eliminate everyone on Earth and then instigate a Hitleresque policy of a Final Solution? Just seemed like something that wasn't the M.O. of Khan.
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  #93  
Old 06-05-2013, 03:35 AM
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So I saw the movie a second time finally and something irked me really bad: When Spock and Khan were "negotiating" terms with each other, Spock said something about Khan's goals to institute a policy of Genocide against inferior races. Did I miss something, or was there ever any mention of such things happening under his Reign? From what I remember, Khan would suppress civil rights, but he wouldn't instigate mass murders. Was Spock assuming that Khan was going to eliminate everyone on Earth and then instigate a Hitleresque policy of a Final Solution? Just seemed like something that wasn't the M.O. of Khan.

I noticed that too, in Space Seed Khan was said to be "the best of the tyrants" or something like that. Meaning, that while he was brutal, he wasn't as bloodthirsty as the others.
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  #94  
Old 06-05-2013, 04:02 AM
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So I saw the movie a second time finally and something irked me really bad: When Spock and Khan were "negotiating" terms with each other, Spock said something about Khan's goals to institute a policy of Genocide against inferior races. Did I miss something, or was there ever any mention of such things happening under his Reign? From what I remember, Khan would suppress civil rights, but he wouldn't instigate mass murders. Was Spock assuming that Khan was going to eliminate everyone on Earth and then instigate a Hitleresque policy of a Final Solution? Just seemed like something that wasn't the M.O. of Khan.
They may have messed up there, but remember that when they said that about Khan, they hadn't woken up the rest of the crew, so some of the people on the Botany Bay could have taken part in genocide which may be what Quinto!Spock was referring to with regards to Harrison.

It wasn't very well delivered, that bit of information.
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  #95  
Old 06-05-2013, 04:30 AM
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So I saw the movie a second time finally and something irked me really bad: When Spock and Khan were "negotiating" terms with each other, Spock said something about Khan's goals to institute a policy of Genocide against inferior races. Did I miss something, or was there ever any mention of such things happening under his Reign? From what I remember, Khan would suppress civil rights, but he wouldn't instigate mass murders. Was Spock assuming that Khan was going to eliminate everyone on Earth and then instigate a Hitleresque policy of a Final Solution? Just seemed like something that wasn't the M.O. of Khan.
Khan was probably a racist in the sense that he deemed Augments to be superior to humans but lacked the the eugenic ambitions of his creators. The fact that he is no Colonel Green or Kodos is part of his charme; I doubt that McGivers would have fallen for him if he had been a 'genetic purification' kind of butcherer like Green.

I think the difference between Khan as a agent and result of genetic madness instead is crucial. In Trek before STID he has always been the latter and humankind was obsessed with not repeating its mistakes (even going so far as to forbid moderate amounts of genetic work) whereas this new interpretation of Khan externalizes the problem: just blame the super-uber-evil Augment and not the folks who created him. It's like narrowly focusing on Frankenstein's creature while ignoring Frankenstein and it also explains why Marcus can be so oblivious to the dangers of awakening Augments. Humankind is no to blame in the first place for its past mistakes so why read boring history books.
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  #96  
Old 06-05-2013, 07:02 AM
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Khan wasn't interested in genocide in the original Trek so much as he was interested in being the one to rule. He wanted to subjugate people.
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  #97  
Old 06-05-2013, 08:22 AM
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Marcus acknowledges he took a 'tactical risk' in awakening Khan because he wanted his specific abilities to respond to, as Khan put it 'an uncivilised threat in a civilised time' but I can't actually recall what 'Space Seed' said about his rule.

In one sense a tyrant is a tyrant and he was excised for a reason. I would have to go back to the episode again. Khan in TWOK (or in fact STID) may not be the most reliable source of information about himself given he already managed to blame Kirk for his own fate. And he was quite blatantly murderously intentioned in 'Space Seed' itself.

That said, the term Eugenics Wars seems to indicate some issues.
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  #98  
Old 06-05-2013, 08:34 AM
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Marcus acknowledges he took a 'tactical risk' in awakening Khan because he wanted his specific abilities to respond to, as Khan put it 'an uncivilised threat in a civilised time' but I can't actually recall what 'Space Seed' said about his rule.

In one sense a tyrant is a tyrant and he was excised for a reason. I would have to go back to the episode again. Khan in TWOK (or in fact STID) may not be the most reliable source of information about himself given he already managed to blame Kirk for his own fate. And he was quite blatantly murderously intentioned in 'Space Seed' itself.

That said, the term Eugenics Wars seems to indicate some issues.
In Space Seed, once they know who he is they have a little conference and it's then that they mention that he was the "best of the tyrants". They are drawing from history as opposed to anything Khan tells them.

That's not to say that the original Khan wasn't brutal, he most certainly was brutal and ruthless. He just wasn't into genocide for the sake of genocide. He wanted to subjugate and rule.
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  #99  
Old 06-05-2013, 08:46 AM
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That seems to correspond mostly to what seems to be on Memory Alpha for him.
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  #100  
Old 06-05-2013, 08:48 AM
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When he first takes over Enterprise and is trying to get the crew to help him run the ship, he wants to use Enterprise to take him to a colony, apparently any colony would do, to conquer. It's just in his blood.
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