[horatio]

Tolkien. The line is uttered by Gandalf when Frodo claims that Gollum deserves to die.
The closest to this in Treklore might be Picard changing his mind about Hugh in "I, Borg" and sparing his life.

[martok2112]

I will confess that, in televised episodes despite my favoritism toward action and epic space battles, many of my favorites were the ones where there really was no good guy or bad guy. Episodes that did indeed make you think "CIty on the Edge of Forever"-TOS, "Far Beyond the Stars"-DS9, etc. The Feds were just doing their job, or they were stories that managed to somehow remove themselves in some way from the Trek trappings to focus on social or conscience issues.

This is one of the reasons why StarGate SG-1 had become my new Star Trek....they had so many episodes that weren't "good guy/bad guy" oriented, and even had an episode or two that showed that the series didn't take itself so overly seriouly....."200" is one of my absolute favorites. "Window of Opportunity" is another.

But, usually, and I know we all concede this, for theatrical fare, the good guy/bad guy motif is what sells. Trek did manage to pull the exception off twice though, with TMP, The Klingons couldn't really be considered "bad guys"...they weren't opposing any Federation/Starfleet missions at the time of the V'ger incident, and TVH, unless you counted the CIA officers on the Enterprise (carrier), or the Klingon Ambassador calling for Kirk's head.



I realize that this is indeed good discussion, but, to look at it realistically, because of the nature of the film, it's really hard to try and overanalyze it and put "Federation" values on what was a pretty clear and cut case of planetary (and factional) survival. To do so just really sours the movie for me.

[horatio]

It is interesting that you mention the Klingons. Your nick is after all a Klingon one and as they are the most deeply explored alien species in Trek it is quite easy to become sympathetic towards them.
The DS9 finale showed this extremly well when Siso and Ross poured out their bloodwine. The Feds respect the Klingons and value them as allies but they nonetheless stick to their principles.
Trek neither advocated a 'clash of civilizations' nor political correctness but showed that and how it is possible to coexist with people who are in many ways your very opposite (the Feds are life-loving democrats, the Klingons are death-revering aristocrats) while still being truthful to yourself and not making any false compromises.

I totally agree that the movies have to stick to less complex patterns. In the movies there are simply villains whereas in the shows there are a variety of antagonists.

[kevin]

Originally Posted by martok2112

But, usually, and I know we all concede this, for theatrical fare, the good guy/bad guy motif is what sells. Trek did manage to pull the exception off twice though, with TMP, The Klingons couldn't really be considered "bad guys"...they weren't opposing any Federation/Starfleet missions at the time of the V'ger incident, and TVH, unless you counted the CIA officers on the Enterprise (carrier), or the Klingon Ambassador calling for Kirk's head.

I've been saying that here for years so I don't need persuaded.

[Captain Tom Coughlin]

I don't buy the ethical dilemma argument. Nero refused surrender. He was given the opportunity, he declined it.

[Captain Tom Coughlin]

Originally Posted by horatio

Tolkien. The line is uttered by Gandalf when Frodo claims that Gollum deserves to die.
The closest to this in Treklore might be Picard changing his mind about Hugh in "I, Borg" and sparing his life.

But the beautiful thing about that story, and we have discussed that before, is that the ethics involved are neither simple nor cut and dry. A very strong argument can be made that Picard's choice cost billions their lives. Actually, trillions. The Borg destroy entire worlds at a time. You could very easily argue that every world destroyed from that point on is at least partially on Picard's hands for his failure to act.

Why TNG, at least the show version, worked so well was that when they presented us with these types of dilemmas they always made sure that there was a strong counter argument to be made.

[martok2112]

Originally Posted by horatio

It is interesting that you mention the Klingons. Your nick is after all a Klingon one and as they are the most deeply explored alien species in Trek it is quite easy to become sympathetic towards them.
The DS9 finale showed this extremly well when Siso and Ross poured out their bloodwine. The Feds respect the Klingons and value them as allies but they nonetheless stick to their principles.
Trek neither advocated a 'clash of civilizations' nor political correctness but showed that and how it is possible to coexist with people who are in many ways your very opposite (the Feds are life-loving democrats, the Klingons are death-revering aristocrats) while still being truthful to yourself and not making any false compromises.

I totally agree that the movies have to stick to less complex patterns. In the movies there are simply villains whereas in the shows there are a variety of antagonists.

Well told, and could not agree more.

[Captain Tom Coughlin]

I disagree with Horatio's point about political correctness. I think that TNG era Trek was very much an example of political correctness on TV. And that's not meant as a knock on it, TNG was a great series. But it was most certainly full of political correctness.

[martok2112]

Originally Posted by Captain Tom Coughlin

I disagree with Horatio's point about political correctness. I think that TNG era Trek was very much an example of political correctness on TV. And that's not meant as a knock on it, TNG was a great series. But it was most certainly full of political correctness.

Largely because it was Gene Roddenberry trying to fully take hold of the reigns of Trek again, and reshape it back into his Utopian/ perfection of humanity vision. But, as you could see by latter seasons, the writers were wanting a little more independence and loosening of the reigns by Roddenberry, and I think the PC grip was starting to slip.

[horatio]

Originally Posted by Captain Tom Coughlin

I disagree with Horatio's point about political correctness. I think that TNG era Trek was very much an example of political correctness on TV. And that's not meant as a knock on it, TNG was a great series. But it was most certainly full of political correctness.

You are right, my statement was too general. There are differences among the series, namely the usual TOS, DS9 and ENT vs. TNG and VOY pattern.
To stick with the Klingon example*, Picard was more politically correct than Sisko. He became Worf's second and this basically said that he respects Klingon rituals and participates in them (which he has to deem idiotic from a human perspective) whereas Sisko did not when he refused to celebrate a victory with bloodwine amidst corpses.

*- Obviously political correctness encompasses other areas than coexistence among species and your favourite example, Crusher's line from The Neutral Zone about humans having lost the fear of death, neatly illustrates the "taking the sting (and flavour!) out of everything" aspect of PC.