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  #11  
Old 12-10-2012, 01:09 PM
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martok2112 martok2112 is offline
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If the fighting has stopped, but the opponent continues to remain a threat, even in their compromised condition, you destroy the threat....plain and simple.

When it comes to you vs. them, you be the one sending the flowers!

Plain and simple.

Had Kirk rescued Nero and crew, they would still have been a threat, at least according to the movie. They would've tried to overwhelm the Enterprise crew upon beam over. The Enterprise would've been captured, and potentially used as a weapon against the Federation.

Now, in the novel, Ayel did make the point, once the Narada reached Earth, that they did not need to continue. The crew of the Narada were ready to go home. Nero rebuked him, and continued with his plans. So perhaps, by the novel, if the crew had overwhelmed Nero, and begged for rescue, Kirk could've done what he could to save them.

But, that wasn't the case in the movie. There was no indication that the crew would've mutinied to save their own skins. Nero spoke up as a continuing threat, and the crew would've been as well.

So, you put them down before they can ever threaten anyone else again.

Sorry, but that's how I see it. Someone attacks me in a fight, I do not consider them to be out to "kick my ***" as it were. I automatically consider them to be attempting to take my life, and in the process, I will fight for my life, not stopping until one of two things happen: They are incapable of fighting (for a prolonged period of time due to grievous injuries sustained by my efforts in preserving my life, possibly to the point of regretting they were ever born), or if they yield. If they yield, and then continue to act as a threat, then I will resume my alert status, and resume actively putting down the threat before they can ever threaten myself, or anyone else, ever again. You do not allow a potential continuing threat to get up and walk away. If you do, then the next time they come back, if they don't already immediately resume fighting (that would be a suicidal choice on their part), they may come back with "friends", or with a weapon.
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  #12  
Old 12-10-2012, 02:56 PM
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In your scenario you are one guy alone getting attacked and defending yourself. Kirk on the other hand is an agent of an organization which is engaged in a three-player Cold War and committed to protect trillions of people. The well-being of his ship or the desire to crush the enemy is irrelevant in comparison to the political complications he thinks about ("you show them compassion - it may be the only way to earn peace with Romulus"). Sure, the calculation is wrong but he does not have all the information or does not totally understand the situation. If you do not know where the Romulan ship came from prisoners could provide intelligence or become an asset in negotiations so it is an option which has to be considered.

I am not saying that Kirk should have done anything to actually save the Romulan crew unless he was totally sure that the ship is no danger anymore which sounds practically impossible ... but his trigger-happy "let's kick a dead man because the Vulcan establishment dude allowed me to do it" after he has already shown that he is able to think about the larger picture and other options is strange.
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  #13  
Old 12-10-2012, 03:32 PM
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I see your point too, Horatio.
Indeed....in certain situations (as we may recall in "Balance of Terror") Kirk did say something along the lines of "in order to preserve the peace, this ship and crew are considered expendable".

That same logic/mentality could probably have been applied to the scenario portrayed in the new movie, but, there is one important caveat, set forth by Nero himself. "I do not speak for the Empire. We stand apart." Therefore, it was not a matter of Federation and Empire (pardon the titular license)

Granted, Kirk did not have all the available info to know for sure exactly what Nero's crew might have been intending at that crossroads moment, but, I don't think that's a chance he would've wanted to take. Erring on the side of caution, Kirk protected his own. Spock made his objection plain, but, it was Nero who held the final nail in the coffin, not just for himself, but for his crew. Kirk simply wielded the hammer.

Besides that, Kirk also had his homeworld to think about. Nero escaped from the Klingons. He could probably easily escape from the Federation were he to be captured, tried and convicted with imprisonment, and then become (somehow) an even bigger threat. I'd dare say that even in Kirk's mind, when he offered mercy and assistance to Nero and crew, he probably thought: "What the hell am I doing?" When Nero declined in his very adamant way, Kirk was cleared of all further thought into the matter, and went to option two.

BTW, Kirk, it would seem in this movie, is about the same age as Kirk Prime when he took command of the Enterprise. After all, both Kirks are (as far as we know) the youngest officers ever to take command of a vessel, especially a capital ship of such renown as the Enterprise.
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Old 12-10-2012, 03:54 PM
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It is easy to say that a ship is expandable but hard to actually act according to this attitude on the job. Devotion to the mission and ignoring one's life (which is why I do e.g. enjoy trashy fascistoid Hollywood flicks like 300) constitute heroism.

I totally agree that making sure that the Narada cannot survive another singularity is quite important. I just would have liked a cooler approach to it, simply destroying the ship as a necessary duty or Spock telling Kirk in his icy mode that he should not offer assistance but ensure that the Narada poses no danger anymore.

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Originally Posted by martok2112 View Post
That same logic/mentality could probably have been applied to the scenario portrayed in the new movie, but, there is one important caveat, set forth by Nero himself. "I do not speak for the Empire. We stand apart." Therefore, it was not a matter of Federation and Empire (pardon the titular license)
True and Kirk should have known from Spock senior that Nero is from the past. I guess the writers did not think much about this stuff as the focus of the movie lied on other stuff, it wasn't a political thriller like BoT, TUC, or The Defector. One could have made two movies out of all the narrative "raw material" that was put into it.

Last edited by horatio : 12-10-2012 at 04:00 PM.
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  #15  
Old 12-10-2012, 03:57 PM
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They can't be sure how the Romulan government would react one way or the other.
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  #16  
Old 12-10-2012, 04:07 PM
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Suppose they guess that the ship was a superweapon of the empire. Wouldn't you wanna get your hands on the technology, interrogate the prisoners for intelligence and trade them for something? Substitute interrogate with torture and it becomes obvious that taking prisoners has nothing to do with "interspecies rights" or something like that, it is just a strategic option which you have to consider alongside the obvious option of destroying this monstership.
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  #17  
Old 12-10-2012, 08:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by horatio View Post
Let's first take a look at the actual text:

KIRK: This is Captain James T. Kirk of the USS Enterprise. Your ship is compromised. Your too close to the singularity to provide assistance, which we [are willing to] provide.
SPOCK: (to Kirk) Captain, what are you doing?
KIRK: [Showing] them compassion may be the only way to earn peace with Romulus. It's logic, Spock. Thought you'd like that.
SPOCK: No, not really. Not this time.
NERO: (on viewscreen) I would rather suffer the end of Romulus a thousand times. I would rather die in agony than accept assistance from you.
KIRK: You got it. Arm phasers, fire everything we got.
"Fire everything we've got" does sound a little strong. Certainly two or three or six torpedoes alone would suffice. That they almost got pulled in because they waited around firing torpedoes also kind of speaks for itself. On a similar note (and per Martok's comments above) I wouldn't be too keen on serving aboard a ship that was considered expendable for political reasons. It wouldn't be what I signed up for; I'd sooner disgrace myself publicly and deliberately as Lt Bailey did. "Watch and regulations, what do they mean?"

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If you read the scene alone your 'anything can be' obfuscation is already wrong. Kirk does provide a political argument. Yet Spock clearly says that he does not give a damn about logic, a word which usually doesn't mean 'logic' but 'common sense' or 'doing an analysis instead of following your gut instinct'. If neither politics nor practical issues matter nor anything logical (read commonsensical) matter to Spock it has to be personal.
Okay there are a couple flaws here. Your assertion that Spock has abandoned logic or 'common sense' because he disagrees with the 'logic' or Kirk's argument is a reach carefully constructed for your own convenience. Kirk and McCoy are always invoking 'logic' against Spock; that doesn't mean their pathways of reason are necessarily more correct than his. If Kirk's argument is political, that doesn't automatically exclude Spock's counter-motivation from being so as well. It also doesn't follow that 'practical issues' don't matter to Spock because he disagrees with Kirk's logic; that too is a reach. And I don't see how you get from Spock's actual spoken words, which you've quoted, to him 'clearly saying' that he does not 'give a damn' about logic. He gives the humorously sarcastic/understated answer that he gives because he was just asked. It doesn't need to be whatever he (might have been) about to say before Kirk replied "I thought you'd like that."

I just got through making my "deny them their voice and shoot them like dogs" comment. Because it felt good in a gratuitous and rhetorical sort of way. Does that mean that's what I really believe? Can anyone say that's what I believe? When I don't even know myself? Am I required to be consistent? I expect when I die I still won't know what I really think about such issues as the capture and treatment of war criminals. Maybe I just don't even have an opinion on such things.

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Now if you read the scene together with the rest of the movie which is about Nero having killed Spock's mother and Spock having serious issues with it plus in particular the most disgusting scene of the movie, i.e. when Sarek tells his son to not suppress his desire for revenge (a remark that would already be utterly immoral among humans while it is suicidal in the case of Vulcans), it becomes crystal clear that Spock has followed the advice of his father.
It doesn't become 'crystal clear' to me. Making a wry comment that is completely called for doesn't equate acting out one's desire for revenge. Nor does not suppressing your desire for revenge automatically equate acting out on it. And I have nothing but respect for a father or superior who has the wisdom (and trust) to recognize when the 'obvious' thing does not need to be said. Spock relieved himself of duty and confessed his feelings openly. That was enough to signal that "Okay, my son does not need his nose rubbed in it this time."

Quote:
One has to add though that the scene is just badly written, its purpose is of course to illustrate that Spock and Kirk have learned from each other and it does not intend at all to make a revenge-hungry monster out of Spock. But intentions don't matter and very often the accidental stuff tells you more about the writer than their well-constructed lines. Freudian slips and so on.
This probably wouldn't surprise you, but Freudian slips are overrated in my opinion. Maybe Freud himself would know what's in my head better than I do (from the things I might say that come out wrong), however most people wouldn't. And I'm not seeing what your reading of these scenes is supposed to tell me about the Orci/Kurtzman team.

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I understand that fans of the movie wanna try to rationalize RevengeSpock away but obviously it doesn't work. I find it quite sad that a movie which tried to copy so many things from TWOK missed the part about the self-destructive nature of revenge. That's not at least why I always emphasize that the new movie is brilliant but soulless. They did everything right but missed the essence of a movie they tried to emulate as well as, here I generalize perhaps unfairly, the franchise in general.
From where I stand revenge wasn't the focus of the story. It wasn't what it was about, and anything you wrote in place of Nero would have been similarly underdeveloped because it was back burner next to Kirk and his crew coming together. It also seems to me that you're just as much wanting to rationalize away the things you didn't like (Which is totally your prerogative, and really none of my business, however it's still making a choice. I mean it's not like your preferences would change if you didn't rationalize them). I don't have an issue with you're finding the picture soulless, even if for my own experience I disagree. In your defense, generalizing about these things is inevitable for the purpose of discussion.
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  #18  
Old 12-10-2012, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Tom Coughlin View Post
They were offered a chance to surrender, they refused.
Nero refused. His crew was running around looking for a way to escape.
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Old 12-10-2012, 08:33 PM
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Quote:
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Nero refused. His crew was running around looking for a way to escape.
It doesn't matter, the offer was refused.
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  #20  
Old 12-10-2012, 08:35 PM
samwiseb samwiseb is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JR585 View Post
Nero refused. His crew was running around looking for a way to escape.
The communications transmitter override is on the thirty-seventh floor down, folks. Across knee-deep pools of rusty water, separated by bottomless chasms leading into the quantum singularity that powers the ship. Better get there fast, your boss is already signaling his decline for a rescue.
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