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  #31  
Old 08-05-2012, 08:34 AM
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I wouldn't go that far as remove the "pedestal".
He''s an accomplished director by rote. Recognizing his past skills in no way exemplifies him has a perfect deity of some sort. "success is not permanent and failure is not fatal."

failure is failure
Who knows what was behind this lapse.
If I had to guess it's the age old story of vaunted director and writer pressed for time or even creative differencences such as Sam Rami's Spiderman 3. What ever it is he'll have other opportunities to redeem himself and perhaps even recognize the errors but this is why I tell you constantly that judging a movie should be more about it's mechanics and less of an importance on it's enjoyment factor which is more often than not so subjective it's could even be called denial. Enjoyment is great, it's fantastic, but it doesn't tell us about the film it tells about the person watching it.
Broadly he's better than some of his peers, but he is not at all technically perfect and for all the faults that The Dark Knight Rises has.........Inception, The Dark Knight and Batman Begins are not without their issues as well.

I don't think he was pressed for time though, as such. I think he just had less left in him by the time that he got around to making it to actually give to the film. Maybe because he had to conclude it all in some way. In some interviews he gave a while back there's a sense that he came back for a third film perhaps out of some idea of duty rather than maybe 100% desire to do so. There was a lot of pressure on him that only HE could direct the third film, and maybe he just caved to that. Without having his whole heart in it. I don't know. It's just how the thing appears to me.

The issues TDKR has are not absent from his other two Batman films, but for some reason they appear to be standing out more obviously here.................even for those who won't hear a bad word said about The Dark Knight, there's admittance that his finale's contrivances, logic problems and mis-steps are patently there.

That though isn't to say I didn't enjoy the film. I did.

Which is why I don't entirely agree with focusing solely on technicals when it comes to appraising a personal opinion of a film or TV series and why I don't do it too often. I think that can often take one down a path of losing sight of perhaps the point or themes in a piece of work. Films are there for a variety of reasons and I think how you feel about a film isn't always connected to how logical or sensible every action or plot point in a film is. There has to be a consideration of both sides.
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Last edited by kevin : 08-05-2012 at 08:51 AM.
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  #32  
Old 08-05-2012, 08:47 AM
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Nolan's best movie is still his very first one (not counting Following). Prestige and Inception have similar themes as Memento but at least the latter suffers from the large budget. His superhero movie work is decent but not exceptional.

He seems to waste his talent doing this nine digit budget dollar stuff and I guess that his oeuvre would have been better if he had continued to do more artsy movies with moderate budgets like Memento.
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  #33  
Old 08-05-2012, 09:15 AM
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Few movies are perfect but plot is plot and he typically is an accomplished plot follower. I'll stand up for him on that category.

I think you'll find that Dark Knight Rises had some rather obvious interference from the Studio or Secondary objectives like Ironman 2 where the director (I forget his name) was specifically told to include inserts of story elements to introduce Nick Fury and Black Widow as a sort of advertisement for the Avenger's film which resulted in a ridiculous introduction of a poison inherent to the arc reactor that was killing him and for some reason Fury had the answer for and the Genius behind the design did not.

I suspect there were certain dictates for Dark Knight Rises. The introduction of Robin and the continuation of Batman for the purposes of a Justice league film. The Blake story had absolutely no purpose in the film but unceremoniously shoved into the editing process where ever it could be. Nolan is producing Man of Steel and this makes sense because I've long said that the 1978 Batman Series that Bryan Singer continued in Super Man returns was literally incompatible with the realism of the Batman Nolan Trilogy. It would seem Dark Knight Rises has suffered from external pressures of some sort. Lets be honest. After the fiasco of Returns the name of Nolan (which they plastered all over the man of steel preview) would go a long way to enticing audience to return to Superman so soon after the last with more expectation. (I will go so far as to predict that Joseph Gordon-Levitt will be Nightwing in a future movie.)

Frankly the issues of TDKR standout because there are more of them and they are more pronounced. Not everything is a plot hole just because questions are unanswered. But how he gets to Gotham, The purpose of the villains and there failure to follow through are similar problems Star Trek had and I have long sung as fatal flaws. DK didn't have those kind of flaws, it had detail flaws.

Further I agree with many critics of TDKR.
The theme work was forced obvious and cliche'. Bruce Wayne rising from a pit visuals feels so flamboyant and attention seeking like an arrow pointing to the title with a rather large pink neon sign.
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  #34  
Old 08-05-2012, 09:25 AM
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I've never had a problem with Superman Returns. Whereas I have almost no expectations for Man of Steel.
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  #35  
Old 08-05-2012, 09:29 AM
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I don't really know the state of the Justice League film idea, apart from the fact that DC and WB completely lacked the pre-planning ability of Marvel in getting their various components organised and it would just feel like they were desperately trying to ape the Marvel Cinematic Universe if they did.

It seems as if it would be a long way off.

I'm curious over how Nolan's influence will affect Man of Steel alongside Snyder as the choice of director, but I liked the teaser trailer. But then as I said at the time in another thread, I don't actually dislike Superman Returns anyway. In fact, I rather like it as a superhero film over some others.

(FYI - I've seen the 1978 film and the first sequel a couple times. It has been many many years since I saw 3 or 4 but I figure no-one cares about them after all these years anyway. So I'm conscious of the parallels.)
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Last edited by kevin : 08-05-2012 at 09:44 AM.
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  #36  
Old 08-05-2012, 09:39 AM
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I've never had a problem with Superman Returns. Whereas I have almost no expectations for Man of Steel.
If you're too young or you've never seen the 1978 Superman you wouldn't. I would seem rather innocuous. But after seeing the original I realized like many others that Return was either plagiarism or a ridiculous amount of mimicry.
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Old 08-05-2012, 09:46 AM
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Whereas I have almost no expectations for Man of Steel.
Maybe that's why the trailer was for me a pleasant surprise...........between Snyder directing and Nolan attached I had already been made dubious they were the right pair for Superman as a character.
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  #38  
Old 08-05-2012, 10:00 AM
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If you're too young or you've never seen the 1978 Superman you wouldn't. I would seem rather innocuous. But after seeing the original I realized like many others that Return was either plagiarism or a ridiculous amount of mimicry.
I've seen the first two movies. Returns didn't seem any more derivative to me than one would expect for a sequel.
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  #39  
Old 08-05-2012, 01:28 PM
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I've seen the first two movies. Returns didn't seem any more derivative to me than one would expect for a sequel.
I don't know what you were watching but it's very obvious and others have noted it to. Singer was on record as saying he has a fan boy like love for the first movie and it shows

"But too often the film plays like one big homage to the original movie. Half of the good lines are lifted from Superman. Instead of outrunning a locomotive, now young Clark (in flashback) leaps over not-so-tall buildings in a single bound. Lex still wants land and Lois still can’t spell her lurid headlines. Clark still says “swell.” And Marlon Brando makes a cameo appearance from the grave. The credit sequence has similar swooping titles, but insists on taking us on a dizzying roller coaster ride through space instead of majestically drawing us into the story. Much of that cherished Superman score is worked into Superman Returns. However, John Ottman’s own themes don’t resonate, and John Williams’s original music blasts through the directionless underscore like a trumpet playing “Taps.” The more Williams's music is referenced, the more Ottman’s suffers in comparison. "Ian C. Bloom



The list of mimicries:
Opening titles
Music
Villian
Villain objective is only slightly different from the original's land procurement scheme.
Bumbling fool Hench lady
Series of save the day montages
One extended scene of flying with Lois lane.

The movie was very unoriginal.
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Old 08-05-2012, 01:38 PM
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I don't know what you were watching but it's very obvious and others have noted it to. Singer was on record as saying he has a fan boy like love for the first movie and it shows

"But too often the film plays like one big homage to the original movie. Half of the good lines are lifted from Superman. Instead of outrunning a locomotive, now young Clark (in flashback) leaps over not-so-tall buildings in a single bound. Lex still wants land and Lois still can’t spell her lurid headlines. Clark still says “swell.” And Marlon Brando makes a cameo appearance from the grave. The credit sequence has similar swooping titles, but insists on taking us on a dizzying roller coaster ride through space instead of majestically drawing us into the story. Much of that cherished Superman score is worked into Superman Returns. However, John Ottman’s own themes don’t resonate, and John Williams’s original music blasts through the directionless underscore like a trumpet playing “Taps.” The more Williams's music is referenced, the more Ottman’s suffers in comparison. "Ian C. Bloom



The list of mimicries:
Opening titles
Music
Villian
Villain objective is only slightly different from the original's land procurement scheme.
Bumbling fool Hench lady
Series of save the day montages
One extended scene of flying with Lois lane.

The movie was very unoriginal.
However it was advertised as a sequel. Most of the mimicries you mention were things also mimicked in Superman II. As for what I was watching, it was the first two movies.

In general I have no great love for Superman because of the whole Red-White-Blue thing. I tend to dismiss him for all the same reasons that I cite Batman as my favorite superhero. I wouldn't call the first two movies more than reasonably good, which is what Superman Returns was to me.

We'll see what Zack Snyder can do with him. Although is there anything of Snyder's so far that we actually like?
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