[Saquist]

Originally Posted by Captain Tom Coughlin

I do not agree, silliness and quality are two very different things. Silly can be great. Look at Monty Python or Spinal Tap. Even Star Trek IV was silly, but it was a quality movie. V is just a mess, and it's not because it doesn't take itself seriously.

And that's even if I were to agree with the premise that it doesn't take itself seriously, which I think it does. I think they thought they were being deep with that whole "God" angle, and all that brainwashing people by removing their pain nonsense.

Voyage Home wasn't "Silly". It was just funny. Thats what Shatner was trying to immitate. Most of the humorous moments weren't making fun of the characters it was the situation of Fish out of Water that they were put in along with a very serious situation. Sulu figured out how to fly a chopper but didn't have all the know how to turn off the wipers.
Scotty not knowing how to use a mouse yet can't type like a mad man.
Checkov's problem with Nuclear Vessel...(OMG that officers reaction was classic). it was all done seriously but situations were funny...NOT SLAP stick.

"Humpback...People?"
"Whales Mr. Scott, Whales"

All of it was exactly how people from another time might react to the 20 century and without commpromising the characters. And to even suggest that the film itself wasn't trying to take itself seriously seems a bit apologist and perhaps even idiotic. Since when has a Trek Movie NOT taken itself seriously. Suddenly after Voyage Home it's turned into a SIT COM? Come on...

Originally Posted by Captain Tom Coughlin

I also think it's badness is magnified by the fact that it is sandwiched in between two of the better Trek films in IV and VI, although I know there are some that differ on VI. I like it!

INDEED. Uniscovered Country was the film of the original series.
More of plot than TWOK. It's own story rather than continuing a story like TSFS and not nearly as boring and pretentious as TMP. It's the one movie in the series that holds it's own without needing to refer to any other past. Which means Original.

Originally Posted by kevin

As far as I know Rick Berman had NO (since we're capitalising for effect I shall join in) involvement in the TOS film franchise as that was run by an entirely different crew (who in turn had nothing to do with TNG's day to day production) or influence of any kind UNTIL the film franchise transferred to the TNG crew with Generations in 1994.

It's about time something can't be blamed on him.
But this must have been some sort of ego stroke just for Shatner. They must have thought they were going to lose him.

[Captain Tom Coughlin]

Originally Posted by kevin

Yes, it comes across as mere brainwashing in the film, but it seems that Shatner intended for their 'pain' realisation to be some sort of trigger for them to open themselves up to his plan. It just doesn't play convincingly that they then go from being themselves to being his subservient henchmen/women via that act alone.

But why would it open them up to his plan? I mean, not just open them up to it but to get them to willingly betray their lifelong friendship and overthrow the ship?

[kevin]

Originally Posted by Captain Tom Coughlin

But why would it open them up to his plan? I mean, not just open them up to it but to get them to willingly betray their lifelong friendship and overthrow the ship?

I can only think that Shatner was aiming for some sort of equivalent of a spiritual epiphany taking place within them as they each had their encounters with him that essentially gave them self realisation that what Sybok was doing was of greater importance (to him, to them, to the universe).

aka - Belief.

But that's based on the Televangelist notion that supposedly guided Shatner in his conception of the story.

Why when Televangelists were all the rage in the 80s and 90s did people believe they could make them walk again and phone in and donate their money to these people?

Apart from utter belief that they could, there is no rational answer.

I think that was what Shatner was shooting for. But like I said, it just comes across as Sybok brainwashed them and then basically gave them orders to carry out his plan.

[horatio]

Originally Posted by Captain Tom Coughlin

But why would it open them up to his plan? I mean, not just open them up to it but to get them to willingly betray their lifelong friendship and overthrow the ship?

There is no animosity between anybody, people merely abandon their Starfleet duties. That's as if somebody came to you, took away all your pain and demons and all you had to do is abandon your work duties. Of course it is questionable that among all these Starfleet officers only Kirk is strong enough to resist Sybok's temptation but like in TNG's The Game it is dramatically justified.

[kevin]

Originally Posted by Saquist

It's about time something can't be blamed on him.
But this must have been some sort of ego stroke just for Shatner. They must have thought they were going to lose him.

I believe he just enforced the contract that had been negotiated much earlier that kept him and Nimoy on level pegging behind the scenes.

[Captain Tom Coughlin]

Originally Posted by horatio

There is no animosity between anybody, people merely abandon their Starfleet duties. That's as if somebody came to you, took away all your pain and demons and all you had to do is abandon your work duties. Of course it is questionable that among all these Starfleet officers only Kirk is strong enough to resist Sybok's temptation but like in TNG's The Game it is dramatically justified.

Betrayal does not require animosity. And again, they really didn't have to do anything to receive that gift of having their pain removed, Sybok did it first without asking anything from them. They don't need to do anything to get it, they already have it.

The only conclusion you can draw is that they were brainwashed, and how does removing pain brainwash a person that way? It just does not work for me on any level.

[Captain Tom Coughlin]

Originally Posted by kevin

I can only think that Shatner was aiming for some sort of equivalent of a spiritual epiphany taking place within them as they each had their encounters with him that essentially gave them self realisation that what Sybok was doing was of greater importance (to him, to them, to the universe).

aka - Belief.

But that's based on the Televangelist notion that supposedly guided Shatner in his conception of the story.

Why when Televangelists were all the rage in the 80s and 90s did people believe they could make them walk again and phone in and donate their money to these people?

Apart from utter belief that they could, there is no rational answer.

I think that was what Shatner was shooting for. But like I said, it just comes across as Sybok brainwashed them and then basically gave them orders to carry out his plan.

And given that the being on that planet turned out to be a false God, what you describe sounds an awful lot like brainwashing to me

[kevin]

Originally Posted by Captain Tom Coughlin

And given that the being on that planet turned out to be a false God, what you describe sounds an awful lot like brainwashing to me

I don't disagree, but all I mean is I suspect that Shatner didn't intend for it to just come across as that.

[Captain Tom Coughlin]

Originally Posted by Saquist

Voyage Home wasn't "Silly". It was just funny. Thats what Shatner was trying to immitate. Most of the humorous moments weren't making fun of the characters it was the situation of Fish out of Water that they were put in along with a very serious situation. Sulu figured out how to fly a chopper but didn't have all the know how to turn off the wipers.
Scotty not knowing how to use a mouse yet can't type like a mad man.
Checkov's problem with Nuclear Vessel...(OMG that officers reaction was classic). it was all done seriously but situations were funny...NOT SLAP stick.

"Humpback...People?"
"Whales Mr. Scott, Whales"

All of it was exactly how people from another time might react to the 20 century and without commpromising the characters. And to even suggest that the film itself wasn't trying to take itself seriously seems a bit apologist and perhaps even idiotic. Since when has a Trek Movie NOT taken itself seriously. Suddenly after Voyage Home it's turned into a SIT COM? Come on...



INDEED. Uniscovered Country was the film of the original series.
More of plot than TWOK. It's own story rather than continuing a story like TSFS and not nearly as boring and pretentious as TMP. It's the one movie in the series that holds it's own without needing to refer to any other past. Which means Original.



It's about time something can't be blamed on him.
But this must have been some sort of ego stroke just for Shatner. They must have thought they were going to lose him.

I did not intend the word silly as an insult, in fact that was my very point. Star Trek IV worked in large part because it was a fun movie, it didn't take itself or it's characters to seriously. They had fun with it. And because of that, it's one of the best Trek films.

[horatio]

Originally Posted by Captain Tom Coughlin

Betrayal does not require animosity. And again, they really didn't have to do anything to receive that gift of having their pain removed, Sybok did it first without asking anything from them. They don't need to do anything to get it, they already have it.

The only conclusion you can draw is that they were brainwashed, and how does removing pain brainwash a person that way? It just does not work for me on any level.

Who was betrayed? All I see is a bunch of Starfleet officers giving the ship up to Sybok.

Drugs take away your pain and brainwash you. It is basically the same thing. I am not arguing that the plot of the movie is fluid but this is obsessive nitpicking to me. For me the question is not whether the Delta Vega sequence makes sense but whether it has a point and it does. Same with the pain scene.