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  #31  
Old 06-09-2012, 11:55 AM
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We learn something fairly personal about Spock, McCoy and Kirk in this supposedly nonsensical scene. Actually it is vrtually the only new thing we learn about these characters while they are on the big screen.
The fake God story has been told better in Who Mourns For Adonais? and that heaven is not up there but down here is something we should know from our Judeo-Christian tradition but as most of us don't it doesn't hurt to actually use this idea for your movie.

As much as I like TVH, it is not a movie with great character scenes or ideas. Sure, there is this environmental stuff but it is basically just emanating from Spock's "judging by the pollution content of the atmosphere" line. Extinction has nothing to do with our environment, we humans would be fine if the whales are gone. So the key idea of the flick is plain bullsh*t once you think about it. Lousy story with lousy ideas but we like it nonetheless because it is funny.

The problems of TFF are its production issues which make it virtually unwatchable. The script is fine.
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  #32  
Old 06-09-2012, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Captain Tom Coughlin View Post
I do not agree, silliness and quality are two very different things. Silly can be great. Look at Monty Python or Spinal Tap. Even Star Trek IV was silly, but it was a quality movie. V is just a mess, and it's not because it doesn't take itself seriously.

And that's even if I were to agree with the premise that it doesn't take itself seriously, which I think it does. I think they thought they were being deep with that whole "God" angle, and all that brainwashing people by removing their pain nonsense.
Shatner reportedly did say this about it at the time................. ''Star Trek V is the epitome of my career, my experiences, my hopes and dreams. It is the quintessential me.''

So, yeah, I have to imagine that Shatner genuinely felt this was a seriously themed film at the very least. Which I suppose you can argue it is. It's the tone and execution and script that misses the mark.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Tr...Final_Frontier

(which also gives a good summary of the production woes and behind the scenes sniping between cast and crew)
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  #33  
Old 06-09-2012, 11:57 AM
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Shatner reportedly did say this about it at the time................. ''Star Trek V is the epitome of my career, my experiences, my hopes and dreams. It is the quintessential me.''

So, yeah, I have to imagine that Shatner genuinely felt this was a seriously themed film at the very least. Which I suppose you can argue it is. It's the tone and execution and script that misses the mark.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Tr...Final_Frontier

(which also gives a good summary of the production woes and behind the scenes sniping between cast and crew)
Oh, indeed.

When I asked Der Shat which Trek film was his favorite, he unequivocably said "The Final Frontier".
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  #34  
Old 06-09-2012, 12:13 PM
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How does removing one's pain get the crew to turn their backs on a lifetime of friendship and family? Now I know that the big three didn't, but still. It's just a stupid premise, and a clumsy way for the Sybok to get control of the ship.

And while the whole alien pretending to be God thing could have been interesting, they did nothing with it. It was weak.
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  #35  
Old 06-09-2012, 12:20 PM
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It's not just the pain, it's also the paradise that is soon within grasp. Don't tell me you wouldn't be tempted by Sybok, don't tell me you don't know any people who ruined friendships and family because they took drugs (or followed other addictions) that promised them to take their pain away. I fail to understand how anybody could watch this scene and not totally empathize with McCoy and Spock.

The movie is very bad but I refuse to play this 'let's bash in into the grounds' game. A few things are good and they deserve to be pointed out.

Last edited by horatio : 06-09-2012 at 12:24 PM.
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  #36  
Old 06-09-2012, 12:22 PM
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If they were being tempted by the prospect of meeting God, the brainwashing would not be necessary. It just didn't work for me.

We see just how strong that bond is in Star Trek III, when they risk literally everything to help one of their own. And then, they just turn on each other after a minute with Sybok? No way.
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Old 06-09-2012, 12:24 PM
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I'm not playing a game, this is how I feel about it.
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  #38  
Old 06-09-2012, 12:31 PM
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They do not actually turn on each other, they just abandon their duties to Starfleet. They might be friends but all the friendship in the world cannot amend Bones' guilt or what Sarek said about Spock. I'd kill for my best friend but as much as I love him, he cannot take away my pain and demons.
Sybok can neither but he can make you forget it for some time like a drug.

I mean gee, of course the movie is extremely bad. But when we see McCoy's father and learn what fuels this man we think we know the movie is terrific for a few minutes before it collapses again.

Last edited by horatio : 06-09-2012 at 12:35 PM.
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  #39  
Old 06-09-2012, 12:32 PM
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Didn't turn on each other? They took over the ship! What do you call that?

And as far as taking away the pain, it's not like that was held out as a bribe to get what he wanted, he already took their pain away. There was no motivation to help him, he already did it.
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Old 06-09-2012, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Tom Coughlin View Post
If they were being tempted by the prospect of meeting God, the brainwashing would not be necessary. It just didn't work for me.

We see just how strong that bond is in Star Trek III, when they risk literally everything to help one of their own. And then, they just turn on each other after a minute with Sybok? No way.
Yes, it comes across as mere brainwashing in the film, but it seems that Shatner intended for their 'pain' realisation to be some sort of trigger for them to open themselves up to his plan. It just doesn't play convincingly that they then go from being themselves to being his subservient henchmen/women via that act alone.
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