[kevin]

Originally Posted by samwiseb

But who would change out of uniform after landing in hostile desert terrain in order to pull a dance number as part of a diversionary tactic? For me it was one of the most insane parts of the movie.

Unfortunately I'm not big on the campfire scene either. Even before they try to sing (shudder) the dialogue just feels too much on-the-nose for me. For that matter, the dialogue in general is I think the single the weakest element of STV.

Well it doesn't really. It's still silly - but at least bursting into song wasn't unfamiliar. It's weak, I know. I'm just saying I can get over part of that hill a little more easily. A little.

[samwiseb]

Originally Posted by kevin

Well it doesn't really. It's still silly - but at least bursting into song wasn't unfamiliar. It's weak, I know. I'm just saying I can get over part of that hill a little more easily. A little.

I felt like the scene had already used up its fuel once Kirk said he would die alone. When you force a character to admit the truth about himself, you've got nowhere left to go for that scene. It's the reason Cadet McCoy can't give a reliable answer about why he chose Starfleet; he has to be hung over and grumpy about his ex-wife at that particular moment because we haven't earned an honest confession from him yet.

So Kirk says he would die alone, and them McCoy rambles on about how "It's a mystery to me what brings us together; all that time in space, us getting on each other's nerves..." It's way too much. He's verbally telegraphing what we've already known about these people for 20 years just by following the episodic storylines.

And then we get into the singing.

I just feel like we already know these people too well (I mean they're not super deep or anything; they're bloody '60s TV characters) to bother with something as in your face as this. In my opinion.

[kevin]

Slightly crossed wires - I was meaning Uhura singing. But I was not at all clear so that's my fault entirely.

About the campfire, I sorta agree that it's one of those things where it's a little like 'where do we go from here' (not in a Buffy way) but it seems to want to come across as expressing some depth about Kirk, when it comes across more as an older man having a moment of maudlin self indulgence in the company of others. I dunno. I still don't dislike the scene but it could just be the fact that the rest of the film is so bad that that moment stands out as being better than it would appear in another film if it was better.

[samwiseb]

To a degree, I actually like the film. And I find that the DVD chapter stops are perfectly placed to skip over the stuff I don't like. I'll usually skip the first campfire scene, Uhura's song and dance number, the tiresome antics with the turboshaft and levitation boots, and Uhura's pawing of Scotty in sickbay. Maybe some other scenes as well that I'm not thinking of.

My favorite moments in the film are the trio on the observation deck (both early on and later in the film), as well as the casual nature of launching the ship after being woken up at 2 in the morning. And I actually like the Spock/Sybok stuff, and don't find it to be a severe stretch of canon (any more than anything else about ST that's retroactive, anyway).

If only so much of the dialogue throughout didn't creek and groan. And yet people insist on finding the half-@$$ed special effects work to be what's most objectionable...

[kevin]

Myself, I think that's because the visuals pull you out of the film because they are so obviously bad (not even just in terms of the drop in quality from TMP but because they are actually I think just plain old bad effects work which should never have been allowed passed to begin with) and I think the one thing that a film can't always get past is if there is something within it that continually prevents the viewer from getting immersed into the environment of the story.

Could be cheap visuals, could be the script, could be a performance, makeup (to which, one can add Catwoman in the Nimbus III salon as well!) or whatever.

They become a distraction from some of the things that perhaps the story has to offer (which in TFF itself seems to be the movie franchise's second attempt to 'touch' God in some sense although this time in the more literal sense than in TMP), assuming that there are things to which some people could find mileage. Obviously there are because that is the case in almost every film.

[Saquist]

Originally Posted by martok2112

James Doohan sorely berated Shatner for that scene too. He felt it was completely out of character for Scotty...even if the engineering section was of a different design. He said this at a convention just shortly before Star Trek VI came out. He was really pissed at Der Shat.

I think Doohan delivered the line Great but you can see how lame the idea was even executed. The character is directed to walk extremely close to a wall where tunnel stiffeners are encroaching the walk space...and further forces the character to look down and grumble in order to not see what is clearly at eye level.

Okay MAYBE that's not bad so far but then as a cream de la crap, he's also knocked out....Really?
It's nothing but really bad and corny slap stick and Doohan knew it too. Nothing like that had EVER been in Star Trek.

Originally Posted by samwiseb

But who would change out of uniform after landing in hostile desert terrain in order to pull a dance number as part of a diversionary tactic? For me it was one of the most insane parts of the movie.

Unfortunately I'm not big on the campfire scene either. Even before they try to sing (shudder) the dialogue just feels too much on-the-nose for me. For that matter, the dialogue in general is I think the single the weakest element of STV.

A dancing woman in the middle of a Desert?
In reality she would have been shot. It's so obviously a distraction only the Boris and Natasha would have fell for that.

Frankly for me it's hard to decided what was weaker.

-THE HORRIBLE SPECIAL EFECTS?
Do you know how many scenes of the ships were STILL SHOTS animated across the scene with SLIDE FRAMES??!!!!

-The Character WorkMany of the characters introduced at the beginning do absolutely nothing for the rest of the film and are placed in an absolutely ridiculous Frontieer setting of a planet you're wondering why there is any importance to at all. -The POOR Execution of the THEME
Kirk being a long figure he apparently can only trust himself
It's a load of CRAP as a theme just to begin with. The series works off the efforts of the whole, epecially the 3 at the top and the characters around him at the point Star Trek V have every reason to be devoted to him. Pavel Checkov owes his life to Kirk just as of the last film. BONES has always been his confidant, SPOCK GAVE his life, and they ALL stood on Trial WITH him to get Spock back.
Rather than drawing on the strength of those bonds and how much Kirk NEEDS those people for him to succeed vs him being alone and knowing how much he can't do without them...he trashes every body he can get away with...

-The Plot of the Film
I barely see a plot over the incredible mind job Shatner has done on the rest of the script. A mad man hijacks a ship for God. And is it just me or is all of this done so Shatner can deliver the estimable and obviously line of "Excuse me, what does "God" need with a ship?' There doesn't seem to be any other point. Sybock had no apparent motivations other than this. It's so 1 Dimensional at it's attempt to talk about the virtues of Gods and Men as much better episodes in Trek have done.

-The Dialogue
Horrendous. As we've seen, It's silly.
Scotty's damage report seems focused on the doors.
Sulu looks and sounds like a complete idiot when explaining how many times he's done this manuver (And what is up with the Captain asking that?)
Kirk pointing out the stupidity of people being relieved of there pain in the mist of stupidity itself!

There is no ONE BAD part of this film. It all seems to stem directly from the EGO driven mind of Shater in spectacular and uncensored and unfiltered fashion. Oh...God where was Rick Berman? On vacation?

[kevin]

As far as I know Rick Berman had NO (since we're capitalising for effect I shall join in) involvement in the TOS film franchise as that was run by an entirely different crew (who in turn had nothing to do with TNG's day to day production) or influence of any kind UNTIL the film franchise transferred to the TNG crew with Generations in 1994.

So, in fairness, no point bringing him into a discussion of TFF.

But in fairness, the utterly shambolic nature of the film's production history (not least Shatner being given the director's chair to keep him happy because Nimoy had been allowed to direct, rushed production schedules because Paramount was concerned they would lose momentum from TVH, budget cuts because Shatner wanted millions more to make the film than they would give and countless others) it's probably not a surprise the film itself was a shambles. It would take either a very lucky or a very talented director to have the ability to pull a rabbit out of that hat, and I don't think I'm being harsh to suggest Shatner was not the former and assuredly not the latter.

[Captain Tom Coughlin]

I also think it's badness is magnified by the fact that it is sandwiched in between two of the better Trek films in IV and VI, although I know there are some that differ on VI. I like it!

[horatio]

Some fans take TFF more seriously than the movie took itself. And precisely because it does not claim to be anything but pure silliness its few good moments shine brightly.
It is the worst TOS movie alongside TMP but it also features the best character moments ... and this includes Scotty bumping his head. Doohan had obviously forgotten what kind of stuff his character did back in the days on the small screen.

[Captain Tom Coughlin]

I do not agree, silliness and quality are two very different things. Silly can be great. Look at Monty Python or Spinal Tap. Even Star Trek IV was silly, but it was a quality movie. V is just a mess, and it's not because it doesn't take itself seriously.

And that's even if I were to agree with the premise that it doesn't take itself seriously, which I think it does. I think they thought they were being deep with that whole "God" angle, and all that brainwashing people by removing their pain nonsense.