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  #31  
Old 06-01-2012, 03:13 PM
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Given the comment you replied to and the nature of it, I can see only a case of one choosing to see how things are played out, and one who chooses that they already know.

You may well be right. But I won't be making heavy observations of one still photo quite yet. Just as I won't be judging the whole film until I see it fully completed. If you don't like that either then by all means analyse to your heart's content.
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Last edited by kevin : 06-01-2012 at 03:18 PM.
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  #32  
Old 06-01-2012, 03:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by horatio View Post
Seriously, I didn't need any context to determine that robocop on a bike does not belong into a Trek movie and I do not need any context now to determine that a uniform which looks Soviet and militaristic is inappropriate for Trek. I also do not need any context to know beforehand that this will neither be a satirical flick like Starship Troopers nor a dialectical piece like the Meyer movies (i.e. their very militarism caused its opposite). It will just be there, basically without any context, and among many other tiny little things create this uneasy feeling that this is somehow not the Starfleet we are used to anymore.
That's exactly how I feel about it, too.
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  #33  
Old 06-01-2012, 03:29 PM
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It would seem a bit early to 'discuss' when so little is yet known. Perhaps when actual content becomes verifiable the subject can be returned to.
I am sure you would view a VOY episode which you haven't seen yet and which as been written by Braga differently. You would not just feel but know that you can predict certain things. That's what we higher primates have our brains for, to think about tomorrow.

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Originally Posted by NCC-73515 View Post
That's exactly how I feel about it, too.
So I am not totally crazy.
Seriously, these are great movies and objectively speaking perhaps even the best Trek movies. There are just some minor quirks which seem strange from a Trek philosophy point of view. They have little to no impact upon the viewing pleasure but once you notice them as Trekker you start to think "without much money or effort they could have fixed them".
Pike's line about the Federation (why not Starfleet?) being "a humanitarian and peacekeeping armada" is a good example in my opinion. It feels strange when a character tells another character what everybody who lives in this world should know. That's why it is better to put this stuff into the background as in TOS or TNG. When you put it into the foreground it feels as if they wanna forcefully create the impression that this is indeed a nice world.
It's like when somebody says "I am a good guy". The question that you immediately ask yourself is not whether this is true or not but why he feels the urge to say it.
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  #34  
Old 06-01-2012, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by horatio View Post
I am sure you would view a VOY episode which you haven't seen yet and which as been written by Braga differently. You would not just feel but know that you can predict certain things. That's what we higher primates have our brains for, to think about tomorrow.


So I am not totally crazy.
Seriously, these are great movies and objectively speaking perhaps even the best Trek movies. There are just some minor quirks which seem strange from a Trek philosophy point of view. They have little to no impact upon the viewing pleasure but once you notice them as Trekker you start to think "without much money or effort they could have fixed them".
Pike's line about the Federation (why not Starfleet?) being "a humanitarian and peacekeeping armada" is a good example in my opinion. It feels strange when a character tells another character what everybody who lives in this world should know. That's why it is better to put this stuff into the background as in TOS or TNG. When you put it into the foreground it feels as if they wanna forcefully create the impression that this is indeed a nice world.
It's like when somebody says "I am a good guy". The question that you immediately ask yourself is not whether this is true or not but why he feels the urge to say it.
To the first, absolutely. I agree that once you have sufficient prior information and evidence then you CAN begin to see where things go. After watching Braga's work for several years there would be enough to contextualise it and predict.

Which is my underlying point. There is years of evidence and tens of hours for me to have my opinion of Braga writing for Trek. There is years of evidence and tens of hours of Moore for you to form an opinion of to then predict if you were inclined to do so.

There is two hours of it in ST09. In my opinion that is insufficient to judge and write off everything that may follow because it has barely begun. I know that opinion goes unshared however. It would be like watching 'Man Trap' and deciding not to watch any more TOS because it's badly made. Or deciding that TNG is a bad show if you happened to only see 'Justice'.

With Abrams and Co it may well go nowhere fast, the next film may be a truly bad film and we'll have to go back to square 1. Believe it or not, I'm more prepared for a film that isn't as good than you may think, if only because ST09 worked better than I had expected it to in the first place.

To the other, dialogue either works for you or it doesn't. I have no problem with that line because Kirk is playing a character who is badly in need of being reminded that there ARE important things to spend time working for. He's living in a materially great world, but he's lost his own direction at that point. He needs reminded that the Federation (and Starfleet) is one of those things and that he could be part of that. And sleep with hot chicks while he does it, obviously. If he chooses to be better and make more of himself. But he has to choose to do it. And it achieves the dual effect of providing some context to the new audience of what the Federation does. That's my point. In isolation you take the line out and can question it. But why is it in there? What is the whole context of why Pike is saying it? That's why context makes a difference and why it needs viewed as a whole.

Sure that it's 'a Dream that spread throughout the stars' is more romantic and emotionally arresting..............but then they would just have been accused of plagiarism!
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Last edited by kevin : 06-01-2012 at 03:57 PM.
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  #35  
Old 06-01-2012, 04:03 PM
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I have only seen two Jackson' movies in my life, LOTR and King Kong. I clearly noticed his style in the second movie, it felt so familiar, and I am pretty certain that I can predict how the Hobbit will feel like.
Same with Trek. I do not need to see amply of Orci scripts and Abrams movies to know that that they will not treat the militaristic uniform satirically or dialectically. I do not know what to say except that this just so self-evident to me. If I am wrong you can take me apart next year.

I am not saying that the Pike line makes no dramatic sense, he is Kirk's mentor, when he recruits he has to spout out propaganda and so on, but this is in-universe wise. From a real-world perspective it is too much in your face and feels like a line that is not true but uttered to cloud the ugly truth. But, as I always say, I care more about these aspects of Trek than you so it is perfectly natural that I perceive it as weird whereas you don't.
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  #36  
Old 06-01-2012, 04:06 PM
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And this is exactly why there's no point.

Even if someone tries to enter into normal discussion and present an opinion they are instantly dismissed as not caring about Trek's underlying principles because they don't share your analysis of the same dialogue or scene or little moments in the same way you historically dismiss them as preferring only 'pew, pew, pew' Trek and yet you have the utter gall to claim they don't want discussion.

Most of the time, I don't believe you do either.
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Last edited by kevin : 06-01-2012 at 04:10 PM.
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  #37  
Old 06-01-2012, 04:27 PM
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First, a correction of a a blunt lie. I said I care more about it than you, not that you do not care.
Second, a corection of another blunt lie. We have discovered in long ago that I care more about the progressive elements of Trek than you do. Feel free to elaborate on this if your opinion has changed. Otherwise think twice before you go crazy because somebody dares to criticize the holy of holies.
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  #38  
Old 06-01-2012, 04:30 PM
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I would reply to that, but given the content and message in the PM you just sent me, I think our discussions are concluded today.
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  #39  
Old 06-01-2012, 04:36 PM
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I have always forgiven your jerkish behaviour because I liked our discussions. Now that you invest virtually no thought anymore in your posts and resort to ad hominem attacks and plain lying I see no point in discussing with you anymore .. or for that matter any other cognitively challenged Abrams fanboy who cannot endure the fairly reasonable and mild criticism of what is objectively probably the best Trek movie of all times.
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  #40  
Old 06-01-2012, 04:42 PM
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Good, you grew a pair. The PM route was quite pathetic.

To make a final remark, coming from someone with your long history of aggressive and foul mouthed behaviours towards other people in this forum over the years your laughable hypocrisy in 'forgiving' me for jerkish behaviour or anything of the sort is genuinely breathtakingly done. Let alone congnitavely challenged.

Bravo. I really think you believe yourself. I do.
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Last edited by kevin : 06-01-2012 at 04:45 PM.
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