[Captain Tom Coughlin]

What I'm saying is that Starfleet would not exist. There would be a dedicated military. There would be seperate scientific and exploratory type organizations. Occasionally there would be joint operations, just as there are today between military and civilian interests. But a one size fits all fleet is pure fiction.

[kevin]

I wonder what the key word is there. Could it be 'fiction'...............

[Captain Tom Coughlin]

Originally Posted by kevin

I wonder what the key word is there. Could it be 'fiction'...............

Absolutely.

[omegaman]

Originally Posted by Captain Tom Coughlin

What I'm saying is that Starfleet would not exist. There would be a dedicated military. There would be seperate scientific and exploratory type organizations. Occasionally there would be joint operations, just as there are today between military and civilian interests. But a one size fits all fleet is pure fiction.

There would be no families aboard ships either, which I like as a rule. No point in taking your family into harms way either unintentionally as in a first contact situation that goes bad or purposely into combat.

[horatio]

Originally Posted by Captain Tom Coughlin

What I'm saying is that Starfleet would not exist. There would be a dedicated military. There would be seperate scientific and exploratory type organizations. Occasionally there would be joint operations, just as there are today between military and civilian interests. But a one size fits all fleet is pure fiction.

Why do you think that things can only work like they do right here and right now? We are not talking about the here and now, you have to address, like I did, the idiosyncrasies of the world of Trek and ask yourself questions like "who deals with a potentially dangerous first contact, the military or the diplomatic section of Starfleet?"

It's like with the instantaneous promotion of Kirk, slightly weird for us Western folks but fairly widespread in the East where you rise but also fall quicker. In a world where economic incentives (which include the need for seniority wages, i.e. your initial wage is lower than your productivity yet it rises faster in order make you endure losses when you shirk and get fired) matter less promoting somebody who has proven his skills should be very natural.

Sorry to be so blunt but being used to something and calling anything else fictional is intellectually lazy.

[Saquist]

Originally Posted by Captain Tom Coughlin

It's funny you point out the military aspects of Starfleet. I've never really considered Starfleet to be a realistic or viable organization. I've always felt like if that fictional universe of theirs was real, you would need a dedicated, full time military. Sending Captain Picard to the neutral zone with a ship full of scientists and families is insanity if you really pull the hood up and look at it.

Originally Posted by Captain Tom Coughlin

What I'm saying is that Starfleet would not exist. There would be a dedicated military. There would be seperate scientific and exploratory type organizations. Occasionally there would be joint operations, just as there are today between military and civilian interests. But a one size fits all fleet is pure fiction.

Originally Posted by kevin

I think the Cardassian War poses a problem because it was thrown in so late in the game from nowhere, but then once it was included I'm not convinced it was an entirely minor skirmish.............it seems to have been a string of events covering decades and requiring a stalemate and virtually enforced peace treaty which alone suggests something altogether more scarring............but then you add in the other wars referenced along the way (the T'Zenkethi, numerous flare ups with the Klingons and Romulans) and I get the impression that the Federation was usually engaged with someone somewhere most of the time.

That could have led to a background of mixed and highly flexible officers in the command ranks because most Captain's we met had had experience of combat and battles ranging from skirmishes and attacks to fleet engagements.

The Galaxy Class though has always been a bit of an anomaly ship when it comes to this sort of thing though because of it's nature.

But I don't think it's all meant to be compared really to a contemporary service as such, it is fictional and latitude comes into that about how they want to run it all.

---------------------

Oh, re the revisions at the top.................I'm not really sure what meat any of that is meant to add to the theoretically rebooted series.

Jiggery pokery and playing with the chess board of the background is one thing which I'm never entirely against but I'm unclear of what the real thematic payoff is, unless it's just to descend into some sort of agenda based propaganda stance depiction which Trek has (as noted) been relatively self-satisfied about at times already (though the TNG era is the most obvious offender there) in it's existence.

And I might be tempted to just 'forget' about the Borg period and keep things in the Alpha Quadrant only.

(I don't really buy future conflict between China and America - it wouldn't be good for business and they really want to do business with each other).

Technologically, I like Sam's idea about 'can't transport off grid' transporters but would probably leave Warp as it is. I'm all for slightly less in the 'magic tech' department if it can be done and grounding things a teensy bit.

Good guys don't win all the time...............that can work.

I dunno, it's hypothetical sure but it might need some more finessing and less grieving for Earth.

Ultimately my vision of Starfleet is a military vision/that is occupied by civilian endeavors. As pointed out our military in the US does this to some degree. Participation in civilian exploration projects and such. Only in space it's absolutely necessary rather than an exercise and rather have a full complement of civilians on board It makes sense to have military branches of the science just like there is a military branch of the Core of Engineers to do their job with military oversight. The problem is that the American Military is too loose. Drugs, prejudice and such are pretty rampant event though the commercials show well discipline individuals many of them are only as such under scrutiny. A multi-species Military will have to do far better to keep the peace. It can't just be for the sake of appearnces. It has to be legit structure, legit teaching, legit discipline, fail once and your're gone kind of perfection especially for the Military Tactics and Combat divisions. Intolerance of any type can't be tolerated. And as soon as detected one is either reassigned out of Combat duty or cashiered.

China and America
Regardless of how it may look in reality it has to happen at some point both in Trek and in Reality. It may not create friends but the purpose is to show a resolution of the conflict that leads to peace.

Firstly, China has NEVER backed off it's human right position. They would be a major block (as is the current Russia) to a United World Government and Peace Initiative that the Vulcans would require in order to assist them properly.

Secondly the same is True of the Middle East but I believe that conflict becomes resolved with the destrucction of Israel and the other peaceful Arab nations counter attacking Iran, Syria and Afghanistan to create a Islamic block of United Arab States. (Some which I think the Arabs of today would like.)

But to answer your question on "what the real Thematic payoff is":
The Theme of a re-envisioned Trek should be about showing all these aspects I've spoken of...Coming to peace. I feel it's necessary to explore the past at the same time as exploring the future. Their past is our present and that the relevant part of Trek that everyone says would should keep following but Trek never really followed that payoff. It only lightly touched on these areas. Why not go full head into just the same way that the old "V" series did back in the 80's by commenting on war world II, except this show would comment on the present.

YEAH, it might step on a few toes but it might brighten the world view of each other aswell.

[Captain Tom Coughlin]

Lazy? Give me a break. There are structural reasons why matters of defense work the way they work. It has nothing to do with "being used to something". Starfleet as it has been portrayed is incredibly unrealistic if taken as the Federation's means of defense.

Your question about diplomacy or the military is a false choice. The Federation governments would still have professional diplomacy, just as governments do today. Of course there would be governmental control over policy. The military does not run on it's own, it answers to a civilian authority.

[horatio]

I do not want to be a dick, I just want to hear your arguments.

About the example, wouldn't you need two ships for a first contact then, a warship and a diplomatic vessel? Or take the Gorkon mission I mentioned. You are transporting the head of state of another power so you should do it on a diplomatic vessel, even when you deal with the Klingons, but you also wanna protect him.
So it seems to me as if you always need two vessels which would be inefficient.

If space is small and known I can see the benefits of specializing and splitting. But what do you do when you explore deep space, send an Oberth class? Seems highly dangerous to me, wouldn't you want a vessel and a crew capable of dealing with everything, be it scientific discoveries, first contact with nice folks and first contact with bad folks?

[Captain Tom Coughlin]

Something like the Gorkon mission would happen under mutually negotiated terms. Perhaps on a military ship, perhaps at an embassy, perhaps at a neutral location. The two sides would hammer out all of those details before anyone left home for anywhere.

As far as first contact, I would imagine most of those would happen when small exploratory craft would encounter signs of civilization in unexplored areas. The chances of actually meeting up ship to ship by accident are almost zero in the vastness of space. Civilian government would then choose how to procede.

[horatio]

Sounds nice in theory but when you are in deep space far away from home a message might take some time and when the other guys start shooting you rather want some nice phasers and photon torpedoes under your hull. That was the basic story of ENT, you go out there on a mission of exploration and before you can count to three lightyears you are in dire need of weapons.
Having two or even more organizations involved in such events would be a mess, you run into communication and coordination issues which you do not when everybody is under the roof of one hierarchical organization. Just imagine the conflict between a bunch of tightly organized military folks and a bunch of scientists who detest rank.

Or take a story like Darmok. Picard needs to be a diplomat, a soldier and well read to deal with the situation. His crew needs linguists and a tactical crew that can deal with the threat of the enemy ship.

I mean isn't this the point of Trek, you go out there precisely because anything can happen? If you stay near to home like the Vulcans do you can let military folks protect your borders and scientific folks do their stuff but when you are out there you need people and vessels who can do everything on their own, without coordinating every step with Starfleet command.