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  #51  
Old 05-26-2012, 03:48 AM
samwiseb samwiseb is offline
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I didn't like Kirk's instant promotion either. I accept it as a necessity for the film to work, but I would have preferred if the story could have been extended by 7-10 years or whatever. Which would have required a more complicated plot, and perhaps even a non-linear approach to storytelling such as used in Batman Begins. And I think in a more 'serious' reboot/extension of the ST canon, ST09 would have more likely taken that route.

And yet I'm still fine with that, because I've never fully bought into the idea of an ST 'canon' in the first place. Obviously it doesn't sink the movie for me either.

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I'm sure there are some folks out there who might call the ST09 'perfect', certainly no-one primarily left here so can we stop inferring that liking it better than GEN equates to calling it that? It's inaccurate.
I actually think one could make a convincing case for it being the best movie, just on account of being the first ST ever to not rely on mostly TV actors. This guy did. (BTW, a recent Trekmovie article has tidbits on the Ender's Game movie in production). On the other hand, most reviews I've read seemed to indicate the movie fell a little short of ST's II and FC. Which despite ST's cultish appeal, still says a lot for its general popularity.

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Does ST09 work better as a film? Yeah. I used to describe it as a coming of age theme but I also think it's what's also known as 'The Hero's Journey' as well (it can be googled so I'm not going into it's structure) so I think now it's more the latter. But it still works better as it's done.

Whether GEN has a theme is irrelevant if it's not a theme one individually gets much mileage out of. I find it's 'make a difference' theme quite trite as it's quite unsubtly hammered home by the script. it's a theme that can work..............but not when it's handled like a bull in a china shop. Of course, Star Trek is not known for not always hammering the point home well past it's moment.
Pretty much. It seems to be the coming of age and hero's journey themes are interchangeable, however I've not actually studied them. I can't say I find much to Generations. The movie falls apart for me once Picard gets sucked into the nexus anyway. The poor TNG vet duo had so many studio-mandated requirements on their list, they couldn't keep a solid grasp on general narrative structure.
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  #52  
Old 05-26-2012, 04:01 AM
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I actually think one could make a convincing case for it being the best movie, just on account of being the first ST ever to not rely on mostly TV actors.
Maybe, but then that wouldn't be the same as saying it was 'perfect', even those who liked it have something about it that they would have preferred was done differently. But then you'll never not have that so...........

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did. (BTW, a recent Trekmovie article has tidbits on the Ender's Game movie in production).
I've never read this Ender's Game stuff, all I know is a film is in production for 2013 I think but that's it's meant to be really highly rated as a book. I read that it ends up having too many sequel books but since I haven't read them I can't say much.

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On the other hand, most reviews I've read seemed to indicate the movie fell a little short of ST's II and FC. Which despite ST's cultish appeal, still says a lot for its general popularity.
If you go by what seems to be the general rule of thumb (that TWOK is the 'best' TOS film and FC is the 'best' TNG film then you can see that they clearly have their themes and play them out quite well. Despite having issues of their own (as noted many times I think the logic underpinning the technical aspects of FC's plot is very dubious but what the hell, the film is entertaining anyway. I would say the same about TWOK but to a slightly lesser degree. Again, I think a boatload of 'conveniences' raise their little heads in the films).

But neither were first film in a reboot origin story either. They were continuations of the general storyline. Different focus equals different requirements in terms of content and what is to be done (like getting Kirk to the Captaincy in one film). This is a siginficant difference which was leading the story in the film.

Of course, you could also point out TWOK and FC were also both the first sequels to much more problematic first films..............so what does that imply?

Maybe somethin', maybe nuthin'.

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The poor TNG vet duo had so many studio-mandated requirements on their list, they couldn't keep a solid grasp on general narrative structure.
Well, yep, let's not forget that was another Trek film project with a list of studio mandated elements that they were told to have in there. It probably tends to inhibit freedom.
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  #53  
Old 05-26-2012, 04:06 AM
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Yes, I do think it unlikely that they would go that route. But, I think most people would have thought that they wouldn't destroy the planet Vulcan before '09 either.
Conventional ST physics, particularly during the Berman years, didn't exactly make the actual disintegration of planets seem commonplace.

However, I would hope that Abrams and company have more real surprises in store. This may not seem a realistic hope, but I would like for the movies to completely avoid the episodic 'status quo' formula of most ST installments past. In the last film, things were status quo for only the last 90 seconds of the movie. I would like to leave that behind again by about halfway through the next movie. Not necessarily kill a major character, but still have a major aspect of the ST template permanently changed. So that this isn't just another adventure-of-the-week type story.
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  #54  
Old 05-26-2012, 04:08 AM
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Conventional ST physics, particularly during the Berman years, didn't exactly make the actual disintegration of planets seem commonplace..
I dunno, in TOS though there seemed to a few times when planets were destroyed by creatures or machines................but then, that wasn't the 80s phase!
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  #55  
Old 05-26-2012, 04:29 AM
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I've never read this Ender's Game stuff, all I know is a film is in production for 2013 I think but that's it's meant to be really highly rated as a book. I read that it ends up having too many sequel books but since I haven't read them I can't say much.
Basically. The original novel stands by itself.

The 'core' sequels take place thousands of years later, but involve the same main character do to the intricacies of relativistic space travel. These are highly introspective, require more patience, and each one is more far out than the volume previous. I'd say the first two sequels are worth reading, but by the end a lot of really weird immaculate conception stuff starts coming into play. Which ruined the final book for me, as I just never quite got reabsorbed back into it.

More recent sequels (sidequels, whatever) revolve around the supporting characters of the original novel and the politics shortly after. These appear more interesting to me. Of the two I've read, one provides a direct link towards the much-later events of the 'original' sequels, while the other re-traces the original novel from a supporting character's perspective. And both were good in my opinion.

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If you go by what seems to be the general rule of thumb (that TWOK is the 'best' TOS film and FC is the 'best' TNG film then you can see that they clearly have their themes and play them out quite well. Despite having issues of their own (as noted many times I think the logic underpinning the technical aspects of FC's plot is very dubious but what the hell, the film is entertaining anyway. I would say the same about TWOK but to a slightly lesser degree. Again, I think a boatload of 'conveniences' raise their little heads in the films).
I don't rank FC all that high anyway, personally. I'd say it's fairly good, but it's two stories wanting to blend as one and consequently each being realized to only half of its potential. TUC I actually think is better written, but not as consistently directed. And then TVH is my 'other' favorite ST next to Khan. I still am at a loss as to when the critics forgot that one existed (very few mentions of it in the ST09 reviews I've read, and rarely positive at that). I would say Khan definitely plays its themes out quite well.
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  #56  
Old 05-26-2012, 04:35 AM
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I don't rank FC all that high anyway, personally. I'd say it's fairly good, but it's two stories wanting to blend as one and consequently each being realized to only half of its potential. TUC I actually think is better written, but not as consistently directed. And then TVH is my 'other' favorite ST next to Khan. I still am at a loss as to when the critics forgot that one existed (very few mentions of it in the ST09 reviews I've read, and rarely positive at that). I would say Khan definitely plays its themes out well.
Sorry, I think what I wrote came across as the reverse of what I meant. I prefer TWOK to FC as well, I meant that while I think TWOK has issues that get in the way, I would say it's issues are less than FC - were I to go down the road of dwelling on them that way.

TVH - yeah, I tend to keep forgetting about it as well unless it specifically crops up. I think because it never seems to come up very much at all in conversation. I don't know why either really. I enjoy it. But it's not my favourite. It's sorta in the middle.
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  #57  
Old 05-26-2012, 04:52 AM
samwiseb samwiseb is offline
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No worries; I understood what you meant.

For it's time, I guess IV was the ST for people who didn't like ST. I was still new to ST, and it seemed like a popular enough 'mainstream' movie from my vantage point (there did seem to be less general interest in what had come before, even though in my own experience I could tell there were obvious gaps in backstory I was missing).

And I guess FC satisfied the same general need, to some extent, but without its fans feeling alienated? I dunno. My reaction was mostly that of pleasant surprise, just that the movie was actually good. Between Gen and VOY, the talk on the street -again from my own vantage point- had already turned negative by that time.
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  #58  
Old 05-26-2012, 08:19 AM
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No worries; I understood what you meant.

For it's time, I guess IV was the ST for people who didn't like ST. I was still new to ST, and it seemed like a popular enough 'mainstream' movie from my vantage point (there did seem to be less general interest in what had come before, even though in my own experience I could tell there were obvious gaps in backstory I was missing).

And I guess FC satisfied the same general need, to some extent, but without its fans feeling alienated? I dunno. My reaction was mostly that of pleasant surprise, just that the movie was actually good. Between Gen and VOY, the talk on the street -again from my own vantage point- had already turned negative by that time.
Oh, by the way I went back and read the review you linked to once I had the time. It may indeed be one of the more glowing reviews but he does raise one or two perspectives on Nero's action I hadn't thought about for a while. And I have to sorta concur with his comments about Roddenberry to some degree regarding TOS. It's a feeling I somewhat share and is the kind of thing that didn't always stop after him. It's the sort of thing which undermines, for example, the themes in GEN.
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  #60  
Old 05-26-2012, 01:17 PM
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You're never going to convince me I don't have an actual opinion, so I don't see what you're saying.
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