[samwiseb]

Originally Posted by Roysten

Yeah can't really argue with that. Shame there was such a rush to get Gen out after the end of the TNG season 7. I mean compare it to All Good Things and you start to wonder what went wrong.

I'm actually not that big a fan of 'All Good Things' either. Go figure.

I thought it was ok, the lighting was an interesting idea, but taken way too far in my opinion. Like the lens flare that Abrams used, the darkness and shadows on the Enterprise were just too much. Used a little more subtly and it could have been really effective, instead you just think that the Enterprise is trying to lower its electricity bill.

Hmm... see, I liked the darkness and shadows of the D interior. I thought that John Alonzo's lighting was personally the best that Berman Trek had ever seen before or since. I suppose it might not have hurt to scale it back a bit, however I quite enjoyed it the way it was.

The D went through a few lighting changes throughout TNG's seven years, and my clearest memory at the time Generations opened was of it looking soft and washed out during season 6. And then the TV shows following seemed to look rather soft for the most part. The visual style of Gen for me was a nice break from that.

But then I also like the JJ lens flares. And while they could probably scale those back as well, I've never head a problem with them the way they are.

On a side note, I was one of those people who until recently said that the D was never suited for the big screen. However, this is one of those areas where I appear to have changed my mind in retrospect. The D was the TNG ship. And they never should have gotten rid of it. I even think jettisoning the baggage that came with it (families, etc) made it too easy to convert TNG into the action series it became.

Some of the music I liked, but it is weak compared to the other films. Why didn't Jerry Goldsmith do this one? Anyone know?

I can only guess. And while I do try to give Berman the benefit of doubt whenever suitable, this is definitely not one of those times. Film music is something I feel too strongly about.

Personally, I doubt it ever even occurred to him to get a real composer. Last month I linked a blog someone wrote back in '95 on the subject of music in Berman Trek. I think as far as the producers were concerned, the ponderous TV scores they already had McCarthy pumping out (and not the "TNG theme") were the established sound of Trek.

Of course it didn't work out, and this time I suspect even they were forced to realize that in hindsight.

Let me ask a rhetorical question here, if everyone will bear with me:

Even when they did get a real composer... why Goldsmith?

Was Horner too expensive? They probably could have gone with any number of people. But out of three sequels, they went with Goldsmith, Goldsmith, and Goldsmith. Why him?

Was it because the "TNG theme" was his? Because not having that theme would break with TNG tradition? Would mean thinking too far outside the TNG box?

I mean, they would 'already' have broken with tradition by not using his theme in Generations. Right?

Next rhetorical question: What happened with Goldsmith's scores? Why were the latter ones (particularly Insurrection) so uninspired?

Was Goldsmith just getting old? Was he not feeling inspired by the pictures he was scoring (hey, I can certainly understand)?

Or were they slowly reeling him in with demands that his themes not appear to 'noticeable'? Just like they did with their TV composers?

Do I claim to have solid answers to any of these questions, as opposed to mere cynical speculative insinuation? Am I psychic? If there did turn out to be any truth to what I just suggested (hypothetically speaking!), how would I have guessed?

Can you close your eyes and imagine a James Horner score to a TNG movie? If you wanted to?

I cannot. I fear I've been too thoroughly imprinted and conditioned by what we got instead.

(For the record, I love Jerry Goldsmith. There's nothing 'wrong' with them choosing Jerry Goldsmith. Even if I barely recall most of his music from the last two films)

[horatio]

Originally Posted by Captain Tom Coughlin

It's not a claim, exploring a theme is a function of writing. If the writing is flawed, so is the exploration of that theme.

The new Star Trek movie has themes as well, very old ones about being lost and finding your place in the world. About finding purpose and family. You dismiss them based on your own preferences of "ingredients" as well, don't pretend you don't.

Let's accept for argument's sake that a coming of age story is actually a theme. Obviously this is nonsense as it would make American Pie a thematically great movie but nevermind, let's accept it just for argument's sake:
In what way do Kirk and Spock mature? They learn from each other after the old guy from the future told Kirk about his fate, Kirk actually becomes a fairly decent captain and Spock becomes a total dick but not because of Kirk but because his father tells him that letting out his anger is a good thing to do.
Among all the coming of age stories I know this is by far the worst. Not that the movie doesn't work well in other respects but this particular pseudo-theme you picked out is not well done.

To sum this up, you basically say that GEN totally sucks and STXI totally rocks. My analysis differentiates more and, to simplify it, I would say that STXI is perfect in every respect except for its thematic and spiritual emptiness whereas GEN is basically the other way around. That still makes STXI the far better movie but not a perfect movie. I wonder which claim is more sound ...

[Captain Tom Coughlin]

I never claimed it's a perfect movie, it's not. It is far superior to Generations, which is a mess. I also do not agree with your claim that it is thematically empty. It's not. It's just not a theme you enjoy. You attempt to disparage that point by bringing up American Pie, a movie that resonated with audiences in no small part because that coming of age tail is something people relate to. That's why it's such a common theme.

[horatio]

In which respects does the former fail in your opinion?

[Captain Tom Coughlin]

I've always felt the way samwiseb mentioned earlier, that the movie was essentially just a contrived way of getting the two captains on the screen together. The Nexus plot made no sense whatsoever. I found no motivation for the Soran character, he could have just flown a ship back to the Nexus any time he wanted. I think the movie completely ruins the Guinnan character, and strips her of all her mystery. I could go on. I think it's basically a mess from top to bottom. It would be shorter to compile a list of things I did like.

It also ruins Data's entire quest to become more human with that ridiculous emotion chip.

[horatio]

About American Pie, it is not a bad movie. It is a funny Hollywood highschool comedy but it is also a bit too Puritan style sexually-inhibited for my taste and if we wanna talk about coming of age stories the quality of a flick like American Pie is far below average.
A movie can be funny and enjoyable but at broad daylight one has to be honest and admit that it is crap.

About the movies, I was more curious about your opinion on STXI, i.e. in which ways it does not work.

[Captain Tom Coughlin]

But I thought the theme was what was important, not the execution? That's how we got on this tangent in the first place.

[Captain Tom Coughlin]

In the new movie, I hated the instant promotions. I had a hard time suspending my disbelief at some of that. I also have a hard time believing any version of Spock would maroon Kirk, even if he deserved it, on a planet where he could be eaten by giant ice creatures. Although I did not mind the actual monster sequence, I did not like how Kirk got there.

I would have liked to have seen Nero and PrimeSpock interact at least once after Spock was captured to flesh out the Nero character just a tad more.

There are other things, those are some of the bigger ones for me.

[horatio]

Originally Posted by Captain Tom Coughlin

But I thought the theme was what was important, not the execution? That's how we got on this tangent in the first place.

Perhaps I am too German. We call a coming of age novel 'Bildungsroman' over here which literally means 'education novel' so I view it more as a genre than a theme.

To get back to GEN, I think that the theme is very well executed. The three relevant scenes, i.e. where Picard and Soran talk about mortality and where we see Picard's and then Kirk's private lives in the Nexus, are well written IMO. For me it is the only bright light in a movie which is otherwise basically a clusterfu*k.
It doesn't rescue the movie and it is more of an echo anyway, kind of like an experience which you remember but after you talk about it and automatically narrativize it your memory changes. That's why I also mentioned Nolan and I guess Matrix or Trek's Prime Directive would also be a good example of such echo stories. A good idea or theme does not make a movie good, most of the times it just gives you something to think and talk about.
Of course in the case of good movies, and TWOK and FC are the obvious Trek examples, the themes are deeply interwoven with the story and not some kind cherry on top of it.

[horatio]

Originally Posted by Captain Tom Coughlin

In the new movie, I hated the instant promotions. I had a hard time suspending my disbelief at some of that. I also have a hard time believing any version of Spock would maroon Kirk, even if he deserved it, on a planet where he could be eaten by giant ice creatures. Although I did not mind the actual monster sequence, I did not like how Kirk got there.

I would have liked to have seen Nero and PrimeSpock interact at least once after Spock was captured to flesh out the Nero character just a tad more.

There are other things, those are some of the bigger ones for me.

I think manpower shortage and the fact that Kirk, Scotty and Uhura proved their skills explained the promotions. Uhura simply knew more languages than the former communications officer, Kirk saw what Scotty can do so he put him on the vacant chief engineer post so only Kirk's 'from cadet to captain' jump is a bit dubious.
Note though that otherwise the story would have had to jump over a period of some years. That was the natural guess we fans had before the movie, that we will see Kirk at the academy, on his first assignment and then on the Enterprise. It's like with the chemical rocket reaching the sun in a few seconds in GEN, not making much sense but caused by the obvious dramatic need to compress time. That's after all the main reason we like books, movies and stories in general, they are more interesting than life because they are a compressed form of life with the tedious bits cut out.