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Old 04-30-2012, 10:32 AM
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Question *Rick Berman

Well, I guess I'm one of the few on here, or anywhere that appreciates what Rick Berman has done for Star Trek (except Enterprise and Nemesis) but I have a question...where did Gene find Rick? I mean to be honest, whato t else did he do before TNG? If I were to get someone to take over the raigns, U would wanr them to have a bit more of a diverse and expanded background in show businesses. But that's jusr me. And if Gene were still alive, that would be so insulting to kill Kirk the way Gene's "padawan" did. I know this has been a big over used debate, but still. Killing of an iconic character like that was just messed up in my opinion.

Having the TNG and TOS crew meet was something Gene was totally against. And when he died, the very next movie they did was have crews meet..well Kirk and Picard anyway. I guess the same argument can be made with the direction the James Bond films have taken. Albert R. Broccoli was against them rebooting the James Bond franchise in 1987 and what did they do after he died? The rebooted it in 2006.

Anyway, back to Rick Berman, where did Gene find him and do you think Berman made the right choices with Star Trek?

**Sorry about the type-0s. I typed this message on my DROID phone. First time using a message board on here.
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Old 04-30-2012, 10:45 AM
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In the grand scheme of things (real or not), Kirk was just a person, like any other, subject to the strange twists of life as anyone else.

That he died a seemingly ignominious death is....well...it sucks, but it happens. Not every hero gets to go out in a blaze of glory...in real or fictional life.

Yes, we always invest that our heroes should go out in a blaze of glory. But that's just an unrealistic expectation. It's like when we invest the notion of eternal life in our parents. Doesn't happen. Kirk was a hero of mine too, for many years. I didn't find a single problem with the way he went out. Sometimes, even the greatest of heroes die in ways we find less than we envision...well...most of us envision. I didn't give my hero that consideration. To me, he was like anyone else. Puts his pants on the same way. Just a man.

At least he didn't die the way as was originally intended....getting shot in the back.


And if Shatner didn't seem to mind, why should we? He still jokes about it to this day. "All this time, my crew used to say: Captain on the bridge. Now it can be said: Bridge on the Captain."

Reality sucks. Embrace the suck, and the suck will embrace you. Eventually, you will come to love the suck, as the suck already loves you. (I'm being facetious of course. )

As to your point about reboots....we can probably take comfort in the inevitability that someone will also re-boot the Star Wars franchise as well, much to GL's chagrin...possibly doing a better job than Papa George....then again, they can do worse.
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Old 04-30-2012, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by martok2112 View Post
In the grand scheme of things (real or not), Kirk was just a person, like any other, subject to the strange twists of life as anyone else.

That he died a seemingly ignominious death is....well...it sucks, but it happens. Not every hero gets to go out in a blaze of glory...in real or fictional life...

And if Shatner didn't seem to mind, why should we?
AWESOME POINT!!! I never thought of it that way. Yeah, and the nerve of Shatner to be pissed about not being in the new movie...he shouldn't have made that choice in 1994...
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Old 04-30-2012, 11:31 AM
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Anyway, back to Rick Berman, where did Gene find
Berman was already with Paramount at the time. His primary goal was to keep the production of the episodes on time and on budget.

Most people don't know that Roddenberry actually passed the reins of TNG to Berman about half-way through the first season.
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Yeah, and the nerve of Shatner to be pissed about not being in the new movie...he shouldn't have made that choice in 1994...
Shatner wasn't pissed. He might have been disappointed he wasn't in the movie, but he and Abrams were friends and were talking about him making an appearance when it just didn't work out in the end.

As far as him not making the choice to die in Star Trek VII--at the time, Shatner had every reason to believe that was the end of TOS and that Trek would continue forward with TNG and later shows. For all intents and purposes, it was over and there was no coming back. There was no way for him to know that fifteen years later they'd reboot TOS in the unique way that they did.
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Old 04-30-2012, 12:12 PM
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Aren't Kirk and Picard still in the Nexus? One of the worst plot devices ever written.
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Old 04-30-2012, 12:23 PM
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Depends on how you read The Nexus. I have read the claim that if the Nexus gives you what you want once in it, then once Picard entered it he never actually left it. When the Nexus gave him his desire to leave it was just imaginary and everyone actually died. Which is way trippier an ending than would ever be sanctioned in Trek. I don't get the idea it was thoroughly thought through by anyone and Berman wanted the two Centuries to be paired up.

Re Berman - fine as a beancounter for the first ten years, less so for the final eight or nine and at times lacking in creative imagination and flair. That's the heavily abridged version but I think I've made my thoughts on Berman clear enough over the last few years. No need to use up the 10,000 character per post limit again!

Plus - Kirk died saving 300 million people. Does he have to save the universe for his death to be worthy? Lawrence of Arabia died on a bad turn in the English countryside. **** happens to us all, hero or not.
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Old 04-30-2012, 01:51 PM
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Berman? Saved ST from Roddenberry himself. He wasn't the first one to do it, but it's probably still worth a couple chapters of praise. He's also a competent producer. I believe TNG's relatively high production values from the beginning were credit to him.

He is not a writer, nor does he strike me as anybody who's overtly creative. Such a producer is probably best suited to finding the most talented people and letting them do their job (which I believe he did through much of TNG's run). He was overprotective of ST, I think particularly when the show had a network to answer to. Trying to produce ST as though Roddenberry was still alive to approve it, I think was a huge miscalculation (neither Bennett, Meyer nor Abrams would know how to write 'Roddenberrian' ST, and they didn't try to. It's also questionable what constitutes Roddenberrian when much of TOS evolved through the contributions of more talented people). Berman's attitude towards music scoring I find particularly telling of how rigid he seemed to be with molding his crew's talents to conform to a pre-established formula.

Generations is interesting in retrospect because I think that was the turning point at which ST became 'The franchise'. Up until that point, most of the criticism had seemed to be towards DS9 ("It doesn't move"), or Paramount's decision to end TNG as a TV series. Whereas Generations itself came across as a very mechanical affair in which too many elements were locked in place before settling on a story to develop. It didn't work for me as a movie, and it came across creatively as a rather cynical affair. This was the point at which negative criticism towards ST began to appear supported.

My biggest 'gripes' (if you could call them that) about Kirk's passing would be that I think they already missed the opportunity for him to sacrifice himself in the previous movie, and that it was probably the Worst Kept Secret of any Hollywood production to date. Things that no longer really matter in retrospect.

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Originally Posted by Commodore View Post
Most people don't know that Roddenberry actually passed the reins of TNG to Berman about half-way through the first season.
This is the very first I've heard that it happened so early on. I believe he still had script approval through until almost the end. I'm late for work.
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Old 04-30-2012, 02:02 PM
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Personally, I don't have a problem with any of the writers, producers of any of the Trek shows. I think they did a good job all round. I do think the whole Nexus idea is a load of crap though. The idea of Kirk being seduced to stay there until Picard shows up and asks for his help is just plain dumb. Picard should never have gone after Soran by himself in the first place.
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Old 04-30-2012, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samwiseb View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Commodore
Most people don't know that Roddenberry actually passed the reins of TNG to Berman about half-way through the first season.
This is the very first I've heard that it happened so early on. I believe he still had script approval through until almost the end.
Yup. Roddenberry essentially was there to get TNG off the ground, but stepped down not too long afterward (to take a front office position at Paramount) and turned over the day-to-day operations of the show over to Berman. Berman would send things along to Roddenberry, but Berman was basically the showrunner fairly early in TNG.
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Old 04-30-2012, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Commodore View Post
Berman was already with Paramount at the time. His primary goal was to keep the production of the episodes on time and on budget.

Most people don't know that Roddenberry actually passed the reins of TNG to Berman about half-way through the first season.

Shatner wasn't pissed. He might have been disappointed he wasn't in the movie, but he and Abrams were friends and were talking about him making an appearance when it just didn't work out in the end.

As far as him not making the choice to die in Star Trek VII--at the time, Shatner had every reason to believe that was the end of TOS and that Trek would continue forward with TNG and later shows. For all intents and purposes, it was over and there was no coming back. There was no way for him to know that fifteen years later they'd reboot TOS in the unique way that they did.
I'm just saying that if I were Shatner, I just would have left it alone and not agreed to sign onto Generations. Unless he was bored or just didn't have anything better to do, or just wanted to be a part of TNG and leave his mark, I can't find any other reason as to why he wanted to do it. Does anyone know if there is an interview of Shatner as to why he agreed to play Kirk and kill off the character?

I can only guess that people would want movies starring him and that if they had simply sent him out on his own like Scotty, there wouldn't really be any closure to the character. So, it seemed like a slap in the face, in addition to a forced move-on-to-the-TNG-with-us-all-you-TOS-fans kind of thing!
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