[samwiseb]

Originally Posted by kevin

Never mind what Engineering looks like, the number of folks (now that news of production is breaking) who appear to STILL want to see Shatner (and the survivors of the original cast) in the next film is far more worrying!!

That seems as good a litmus test as any as to which fans are able to connect with the practical world. The 'stereotypical' fan doesn't have an ear for stilted dialogue, or triteness, or lack of subtlety, and wouldn't appreciate that ST is often guilty of these things. Or he acknowledges these things but with a chip on his shoulder, often dismissing critics, public opinion, or the very notion that there even is a general consensus when it comes to criticism (basically, the same argument used by failed musicians who can't get a gig).

To a 'stereotypical' fan, the reason for not including Shatner has everything to do with his character being dead (a reason which, as they'll quickly point out, is now nullified in this new timeline), and nothing to do with the possibility that, just maybe, JJ and company deliberately snubbed Shatner because they knew his image and limited abilities would only pull the project down, or anchor it to preconceptions that were detrimental to the wider audience that Paramount saw the potential otherwise to reach.

Nothing to do but shrug and laugh, I guess. Love what you want to love, love ST, but don't lose perspective of the real world and try not to be the stereotype. (I take it you were reading the talkbacks to the trekmovie article? I wasn't aware many people felt that way, but I guess I'm not surprised ^_^).

[kevin]

Actually that specific article itself hasn't fuelled too much of it (mostly because so many are still going on about the look of Engineering in the last one) but for some reason there's at least three requests for an Admiral Archer cameo..................which I assume are genuine. But I've seen so many Kirk requests and they have been reviving themselves (for example on the Deadline article relating to production starting).

Although scooting down the comments from Bob Orci (who it appears to be directly, I think) he seems to indicate round about comment 380 or thereabouts that we will see more of Engineering and also that the film has a bigger budget than the last film.

[horatio]

Originally Posted by samwiseb

That seems as good a litmus test as any as to which fans are able to connect with the practical world. The 'stereotypical' fan doesn't have an ear for stilted dialogue, or triteness, or lack of subtlety, and wouldn't appreciate that ST is often guilty of these things. Or he acknowledges these things but with a chip on his shoulder, often dismissing critics, public opinion, or the very notion that there even is a general consensus when it comes to criticism (basically, the same argument used by failed musicians who can't get a gig).

To a 'stereotypical' fan, the reason for not including Shatner has everything to do with his character being dead (a reason which, as they'll quickly point out, is now nullified in this new timeline), and nothing to do with the possibility that, just maybe, JJ and company deliberately snubbed Shatner because they knew his image and limited abilities would only pull the project down, or anchor it to preconceptions that were detrimental to the wider audience that Paramount saw the potential otherwise to reach.

Nothing to do but shrug and laugh, I guess. Love what you want to love, love ST, but don't lose perspective of the real world and try not to be the stereotype. (I take it you were reading the talkbacks to the trekmovie article? I wasn't aware many people felt that way, but I guess I'm not surprised ^_^).

I couldn't care less about avoiding to fit any stereotypes (How about "be yourself" instead of "care that you image doesn't match any stereotypes"?) and Trek is what it is precisely because Roddenberry was not pragmatic and pushed his unrealistic ideas
Shatner's time is over, the franchise is rebooted and a cameo like that of Nimoy only belongs into the first movie. You don't pass the torch in the second movie.

[martok2112]

Originally Posted by horatio

I couldn't care less about avoiding to fit any stereotypes (How about "be yourself" instead of "care that you image doesn't match any stereotypes"?) and Trek is what it is precisely because Roddenberry was not pragmatic and pushed his unrealistic ideas

Yeah, "to thine own self be true" is a bunch of crap. Sometimes, a person can still be their self, and still get shunned and cast out because his/her behavior doesn't fit the norms imposed by a majority.

Originally Posted by Horatio

Shatner's time is over, the franchise is rebooted and a cameo like that of Nimoy only belongs into the first movie. You don't pass the torch in the second movie.

Unless they're playing "hot potato".

[samwiseb]

Originally Posted by horatio

I couldn't care less about avoiding to fit any stereotypes (How about "be yourself" instead of "care that you image doesn't match any stereotypes"?) and Trek is what it is precisely because Roddenberry was not pragmatic and pushed his unrealistic ideas

I don't think you need to worry. Wondering why ST will never be considered Academy material, or pouting that JJ's refusal to even consider Shatner is just further proof that he doesn't 'get' ST at all, I'd think are more the kind of serious warning symptoms of terminal disease.

[Roysten]

Please no Shatner! I might have quite enjoyed the little holo recording of him that was pondered for Trek09 but no more cameos from the other universe. W have our new crew now so let them have their own adventures, am still hoping that we don't see Kahn either.

The article says 'improvements' to the engineering sets which, as mentioned in previous pages suggests that it's not going to be totally new. I don't mind the industrial look, though I'd like to see something akin to the concept sketches of engineering, perhaps another part of engineering perhaps?

In terms of changes in general I don't mind little tweaks here and there.

Just have to wait for some production pictures to start appearing.

[jerhanner]

Originally Posted by kevin

Never mind what Engineering looks like, the number of folks (now that news of production is breaking) who appear to STILL want to see Shatner (and the survivors of the original cast) in the next film is far more worrying!!

LOL How true! Nevermind the man's lack of skill - if his fellow thespians can't stand him shouldn't we take note of that?

But nothing, and I mean nothing, amuses me like a Trek fan's ability to ignore certain things (such as TOS Klingons going from smooth to ridged foreheads) while going into conniptions regarding how the model of a pretend spaceship is designed. Aren't they both equally meaningless? But then again, no one does an Exaggerated Sense of Entitlement like a Trek fan. When we raise $100 million to do a Trek film we can do it just like we want. Until then, let JJ et al do their work and show some appreciation.

[Zardoz]

Originally Posted by Roysten

Please no Shatner! I might have quite enjoyed the little holo recording of him that was pondered for Trek09 but no more cameos from the other universe. W have our new crew now so let them have their own adventures, am still hoping that we don't see Kahn either.

The article says 'improvements' to the engineering sets which, as mentioned in previous pages suggests that it's not going to be totally new. I don't mind the industrial look, though I'd like to see something akin to the concept sketches of engineering, perhaps another part of engineering perhaps?

In terms of changes in general I don't mind little tweaks here and there.

Just have to wait for some production pictures to start appearing.

I second that Roy!

[samwiseb]

Originally Posted by Roysten

Please no Shatner! I might have quite enjoyed the little holo recording of him that was pondered for Trek09 but no more cameos from the other universe. W have our new crew now so let them have their own adventures, am still hoping that we don't see Kahn either.

Oh they won't. The only people who can get away with 'doing' Shatner (no, not like that) are stand-up comedians, which is probably why JJ told Pine not to even worry about mimicking him (which fans love to take out of context as being further proof that JJ has no respect for ST). Shatner's presence would only make that disparity between himself and Pine more clear. He'd be a TV clown surrounded by movie actors. His presence on a movie as big as ST can only hurt said movie.

And I too am still hoping/betting against Khan.

[samwiseb]

Originally Posted by jerhanner

But nothing, and I mean nothing, amuses me like a Trek fan's ability to ignore certain things (such as TOS Klingons going from smooth to ridged foreheads) while going into conniptions regarding how the model of a pretend spaceship is designed. Aren't they both equally meaningless?

Tell me about it. It is next to impossible to have a meaningful conversation with most fans about changing production styles and aesthetics, when in their minds the only 'real' reason things change from production to production is [insert whatever 'explanation' is cited in the Mike Okuda reference books after the fact].