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  #41  
Old 11-01-2011, 04:26 PM
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Ah....I never saw the intro that the Klingon Academy...
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  #42  
Old 11-01-2011, 11:02 PM
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I am not too fond of Braxton but what the hell is bad about Time and Again, Year of Hell, Timeless, the one where Kes came back or the one were the ship was split up in different time frames and Seska came back?
That's why I said 'most' VOY uses.

'Year of Hell' and 'Timeless' are about the only two TT episodes in VOY that I think I personally would class as 'good/very good'. I guess technically '11.59' is sort of time travel but not literally. If we were being pernickity about such things then that could go in as well.

Some, like 'Time and Again' are highly watchable............but also perfectly disposable (or fluffy) overall.

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And before any 'dead is dead' stuff starts, this story merely repeated the point of 'Worst Case Scenario', that Seska is undead.
If I recall, that episode was about fractured time zones and so the characters ended up in a time frame where Seska never died. Or back in time in a period where she was still alive. Whatever, I don't recall fully. That's a teensy bit different - you can kill off/keep characters alive in multiple universe scenarios (the way Fringe does) or flashback style uses and that's a lot more 'plausible'. That's not a permanent Spock style resurrection............so I would be unlikely to involve my 'dead is dead stuff' anyway. In that instance of it.

Not that I wouldn't have done so if I felt it applied anyway.

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About the TCW, sure, the concept doesn't fit into a prequel series. But except for the sphere builders in the third season there were only a handful of episodes, Cold Front and Future Tense plus the longer stories between seasons. None of them except for Zero Hour is bad while Future Tense, Twilight and Similitude are among the most memorable ENT episodes.
That's all personal opinion though (just like mine and everyone else's of course) and there's no denying that the TCW is a concept that I can certainly recall more people expressing disatisfaction with than satisfaction. And that's over multiple forums on Trek.

It might be unfair of me in watching the show..................but when I dislike the TCW from the outset any episode involving it already had to work double hard to light my interest. And if Daniels shows up..............triple hard! And no, the eps dealing with the TCW are not all bad. But that doesn't mean I also would rate them all as highly as you do either.


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The claim that everything concerning time travel went down hill in VOY and ENT is one of these Trek myths based on overperception.
No, I don't at all think it's a myth or a perception. Well, correction, it probably is partly the latter. As far as I, as a viewer of the show, am concerned many of it's TT stories are nowhere near as interesting or rewatchable as some of the earlier ones.

I also believe that thanks to it's over-use of TT, that it drained the batteries of creative TT stories and ended up doing them more gimmicky style because I don't think they had any other ideas floating about at the time, and as Sam alluded to, once writers on a show 'think' they know what the audience wants, then they will just give them more of that in the belief they are keeping everyone happy.

Newsflash - they weren't. Not for everyone watching.

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VOY exaggerates the technobabble and becomes the time travel up-fu*ker (there most be a noun of fu*k up), ENT has a series-inappropriate TT concept and each and every story under this concept has to suck.
No, they don't ALL have to suck - and I don't even think anyone has said the every story done under these concepts did - but neither are your statements 100% myth either.
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  #43  
Old 11-02-2011, 03:25 AM
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You say that you disliked the concept from the very beginning, I say that I prefer to look at individual stories before I let my preconceptions get the better hand of me.
Take the Dominion War, we surely like it. Doesn't imply though that single stories under this umbrella can't suck. Serialization is a great thing but liking or disliking a story arc has little to do with the very episodes that make up this arc.

I doubt that Berman and Braga believed they knew that the audience badly wants the TCW. Last time I checked they were forced by the studio to not go all retro.
Broken Bow (2), Cold Front, Shockwave (2), Future Tense, The Expanse, some episodes about the spherebuilders around the end of the third season, Storm Front (2).
That's 9 plus x out of 77. This is more TT than before but it is hardly an over-use. If you actually watch all of ENT the TCW seems like something that happens from time to time and not like something that defines the show.
I admit though that neither of these stories used time travel as a dramatic tool and that consequently none of the TCW TT stories are memorable. But, talking about screwing up time travel for the near future, all the good TT episodes (Twilight, E², In a Mirror Darkly) came afterwards so whatever permanent damage this show was supposed to have done to TT has been amended.
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  #44  
Old 11-02-2011, 09:05 AM
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You say that you disliked the concept from the very beginning, I say that I prefer to look at individual stories before I let my preconceptions get the better hand of me.
Yeah, you can look at the 'larger' picture and also break it down to it's components. That's fair enough. That's why some VOY TT episodes are perfectly fine on an individual basis for me...............but my larger impression of VOY and TT stays the same!

So I'm also coming at it from the reverse angle of then going ahead and seeing it anyway.

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Take the Dominion War, we surely like it. Doesn't imply though that single stories under this umbrella can't suck. Serialization is a great thing but liking or disliking a story arc has little to do with the very episodes that make up this arc.
I don't think that last part is entirely true every time since they obviously co-exist within the telling of the story, and I've no recollection of saying that the Dominion War was perfectly executed - I mean, I might have, I cannot recall everything I've ever said here since 2008 obviously - but from my perception it's up on the TCW on at least two major counts.

It has a better batting average when broken down to it's relevant episodes, and it also seemed more thought out than the TCW (which we already know was created without much forethought by B&B to satisfy UPN's request for a 'hook' for the show. They've said themselves they never really thought it through fully) ever came across as being.

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I doubt that Berman and Braga believed they knew that the audience badly wants the TCW. Last time I checked they were forced by the studio to not go all retro.
They had to do a few things sure...................but as I recall they specifically developed the TCW idea based on the demands of the network. Maybe they liked it then....................who knows...............maybe they had written themselves in and just couldn't find a way back out.

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That's 9 plus x out of 77. This is more TT than before but it is hardly an over-use. If you actually watch all of ENT the TCW seems like something that happens from time to time and not like something that defines the show.
I'm not gonna argue with that math just now because I don't recall exactly how many episodes specifically had the TCW in them, but I think it does define it to an extent because of the general reaction to it. The TCW is one of the most frequently commented things about the show up to the start of the fourth season.

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I admit though that neither of these stories used time travel as a dramatic tool and that consequently none of the TCW TT stories are memorable. But, talking about screwing up time travel for the near future, all the good TT episodes (Twilight, E², In a Mirror Darkly) came afterwards so whatever permanent damage this show was supposed to have done to TT has been amended.
I'm not sure 'permanent' is a word anyone used. I know I used the term 'rested for a while', which I still believe to be the case. Some people used burnout...............over-use etc around some of the creative sides.

Mileage will usually vary, though.
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  #45  
Old 11-04-2011, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by kevin View Post
I'm not gonna argue with that math just now because I don't recall exactly how many episodes specifically had the TCW in them, but I think it does define it to an extent because of the general reaction to it. The TCW is one of the most frequently commented things about the show up to the start of the fourth season.
I care about facts, you care about the fuzzy overperception of people who have obviously only seen fragments of the show.


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I'm not sure 'permanent' is a word anyone used. I know I used the term 'rested for a while', which I still believe to be the case. Some people used burnout...............over-use etc around some of the creative sides.

Mileage will usually vary, though.
Permanent, persistent effects, burnout, who cares about semantics. You and Sam claimed that too much and too bad time travel in VOY/ENT has made it a no-no for the near-future.
I bothered to check what the last time travel episodes on the small screen have actually have been and, guess what, except for the spherebuilder arc at the end of the third season the last three stories involving TT have all been outstanding. So if I claimed that because of this time travel is so super-duper-great and should be all over the next Trek incarnation I would ironically not even be talking out of my butt butt but base my persistence argument on solid ground.
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  #46  
Old 11-04-2011, 08:04 AM
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I care about facts, you care about the fuzzy overperception of people who have obviously only seen fragments of the show.
I admit to not having seen the fourth season.............but since the TCW was ended by that point I saw most of the others in question. I still don't like it.

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Permanent, persistent effects, burnout, who cares about semantics. You and Sam claimed that too much and too bad time travel in VOY/ENT has made it a no-no for the near-future.
Yes, I think that was the gist.

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I bothered to check what the last time travel episodes on the small screen have actually have been and, guess what, except for the spherebuilder arc at the end of the third season the last three stories involving TT have all been outstanding.
You might also have bothered to remember that is YOUR opinion of those time travel stories and not an opinion everyone is obligated to adhere to if/when said episodes are/have been seen.

Just sayin'

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So if I claimed that because of this time travel is so super-duper-great and should be all over the next Trek incarnation I would ironically not even be talking out of my butt butt but base my persistence argument on solid ground.
No, you're still talking out your technical butt because you would still be basing it on YOUR opinion (or perception) of the material. It's no more or less solid than mine. You just want to think it is. You have this persistent problem accepting other people's opinion's of the same topics when it differs from yours. It's not that I haven't seen the overwhelming majority of TT episodes IN Trek so if you have a problem with my opinion - so be it. You can have whatever opinion of TT you want to have based on your perception of the use of it. The problem for you is that so can everyone else.
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Last edited by kevin : 11-04-2011 at 08:12 AM.
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  #47  
Old 11-04-2011, 09:17 AM
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The three episodes are Twilight, E² and In a Mirror Darkly. That's like TNG's Time Squared, Yesterday's Enterprise and Cause and Effect.

I have no problem with you having another opinion. But you obviously you don't have any because you don't know the three episodes. That's the whole issue, that you merely have fragmentary impressions of a show and nonetheless dare to talk about it. Pathetic.
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  #48  
Old 11-04-2011, 09:42 AM
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I have no problem with you having another opinion. But you obviously you don't have any because you don't know the three episodes. That's the whole issue, that you merely have fragmentary impressions of a show and nonetheless dare to talk about it.
You do realise that my opinion on TT is based on just a little bit more than just three episodes of ENT?

At least I would hope so..................since we have plenty of TT use to utilise. I mean, we could restrict the conversation to not even being about ENT and even just going up to VOY and 'Endgame' (or as far as S3 of ENT which still includes the TCW. And, actually I just realise, means I must have seen the first two episodes in question - I guess that's how memorable they were. Plus if I was being really obtuse, I would say that the last is really more of a Mirror Universe story with a touch of TT) and my opinion would actually be even stronger that TT was better suited to being rested.

It has a much larger background than just ENT.

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Pathetic
Awwwwwwwwwwww. I think I need a tissue.
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  #49  
Old 11-04-2011, 09:57 AM
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Nothing wrong with claiming that on average time travel in VOY and or ENT was worse than before. I'd even agree with this point.
But I talked about persistence. If the last three TT episodes weren't bad your and Sam's persistence argument is weakened if not outright invalidated.

That's why I don't understand the point you just made, that time travel should even rest when you merely consider VOY and ignore ENT. If you talk about trends the last things that happened matter.

At the risk of sounding too technical, differentiating between averages and trends might be useful for this discussion.
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  #50  
Old 11-04-2011, 10:17 AM
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Nothing wrong with claiming that on average time travel in VOY and or ENT was worse than before. I'd even agree with this point. But I talked about persistence. If the last three TT episodes weren't bad your and Sam's persistence argument is weakened if not outright invalidated.
I would agree that, to use your words in an earlier post, that it might have amended some issues. However, even you acknowledged this did not resolve them.

It's not even just Sam and I. There are others for whom TT is an issue, as I'm sure there are some for whom it is not.

Quote:
That's why I don't understand the point you just made, that time travel should even rest when you merely consider VOY and ignore ENT. If you talk about trends the last things that happened matter. At the risk of sounding too technical, differentiating between averages and trends might be useful for this discussion.
Originally I wasn't ignoring ENT, I was utilising it because I watched the seasons which involved the TCW. Which, in turn, informed my opinion of it. Both at that time based on direct viewing and also the memories that have remained. But you weren't happy with that. Now, I offer to leave it out and still you're not happy!

However, even moving the discussion to trending will not work around a subjective subject. Was the trend an upward curve in the quality of TT stories? Is their a way to define that beyond perception? A barometer or method of proving that it was? Is that just because you enjoyed them and found them to be improvements over (what you already admit and agree with) the TT stories that were suffering anyway?

If there was, then I would be more than happy (in fact quite interested) to see and take account of it.

Does that mean it was definitely a trend upwards? Does it mean - even if it did mean that TT was an upward curve - that doing another would somehow mean continuation of that trend?
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Last edited by kevin : 11-04-2011 at 10:21 AM.
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