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  #101  
Old 09-19-2011, 08:53 AM
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The problem is by the end of the film Spock isn't behaving as a Neaderthal.

By the end of the film with Nero he isn't doing anything other than saying in a straightforward way 'I don't agree with your course of action, Captain'. He's not running around the Bridge like a Methamphetamine amped Redjac screaming 'kill, kill, KILL!' and fighting for control of the phaser batteries. And he has good reason to disagree. But he's nipped in the bud because that's all he does. State it.

This isn't as far down the road as Picard went, when his blindness actually and genuinely was risking the safety of his entire crew and his entire ship and no-one apart from Lily was of a mind to stop him. Not even half as far down it.

It's perchance slightly un-Vulcan like under normal circumstances, but it's not beyond comprehension.

He isn't even exhibiting traits that are entirely unknown in Vulcans at other times either anyway. As noted, Vulcans can relatively easily be goaded into getting angry and both times earlier in the film it was done it was done to him deliberately by people seeking to provoke the reaction from him, and it helpfully reminds us how dangerous Vulcans can be if they do decide to get uppity. There were plenty of other times in the film where he remained calmer and in control.

Humans still confuse him, just as they continue to do later in his life.

Even the remark above about his 'irritation' during the KM is hardly wide of the Vulcan mark - or even human mark. Imagine if you had designed a test that was intended for no-one to pass it (because that was the point) and someone does? The natural first logical (and emotional) reaction is 'How did he do that?'.............followed by at the immediate moment...'I do not know'. Until it's investigated.

Then he takes on Kirk at the hearing and he sorta does talk down to him over it until they get interrupted..................now, Vulcans talking down to humans? Lemme think if that is at all new in Vulcan/Human relations. Well, of course it isn't. They do it all the time.

I don't think Spock behaves very wide of the mark of Vulcans for the bulk of the film, and the only case where he perhaps does go a little off the reservation is with Nero, but once again, he's hardly baying at the moon for bloodlust - he's quite plainly stating his objection only to the course of action his Captain wants to take.
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  #102  
Old 09-19-2011, 11:57 AM
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To sum it up: Spock is pissed at the loss of his mom and his planet, just as you or I would be—being Vulcan has nothing to do with it at all—he's half human and that's the stronger side which will always rise to the surface—He's walking a fine line between Jekyll and Hide.
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  #103  
Old 09-19-2011, 12:48 PM
samwiseb samwiseb is offline
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Originally Posted by horatio View Post
We must be indeed talking about different movies. In the movie I have seen Spock disapproves of saving Nero:

KIRK: This is Captain James T. Kirk of the USS Enterprise. Your ship is compromised. Your too close to the singularity to provide assistance, which we will provide.
SPOCK: (to Kirk) Captain, what are you doing?
KIRK: You show them compassion may be the only way to earn peace with Romulus. It's logic, Spock. Thought you'd like that.
SPOCK: No, not really. Not this time.

No doesn't sound like "does not much approve" to me.
It sounds close enough to me. Most recent ST film I 'probably' have almost every line memorized is TUC. And probably because I had the luxury at that age to get away with filling my head with unimportant trivia.

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I like your points about the political complications but my impression of this scene is different. I believe that its point is to show that they both have learned something from each other. Kirk proceeds by the book whereas Spock follows his gut feeling. This is clearly a wonderful idea ... unless the gut feeling is revenge.
Oh that is totally the point of the scene. I was just offering a reason Spock 'might' have objected other than wanting revenge (Even if what I said was the reason, you couldn't stop the movie to explain it because it wouldn't be important enough to the central plot).

I don't see any evidence here that Spock's 'gut' reaction is revenge. Nero is obviously a dangerous man, and it may just not have occurred to Spock until just now that you would try capturing him alive... I mean there's barely been time for either of them to worry much about that over the last fifteen minutes. And Spock's "Not really, not this time" is a lighthearted "well, since you've asked" kind of reaction (As I recall, it got a good laugh from almost every audience I saw the movie with). And probably the very least reaction anybody in his shoes should show at that point. In fact I dare say he's been 150% cool about the whole thing ever since his talk with Dad.

When a person is murdered in our society, you typically see family and survivors wide-eyed with rage and actively pushing for the death penalty. I mean the media loves showing that stuff. Can you imagine if Spock had died on Vulcan, and Amanda just happened to be on the bridge when Kirk was confronting Nero at the end? "What are you doing?" indeed.

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About Sarek, there is nothing to interpret. He tells his son that he does not have to control his anger:

SPOCK: I feel anger for the one who took mother's life. An anger I cannot control.
SAREK: I believe, as she would say, do not try to. You asked me once why I married your mother. I married her because I loved her.
Missinterpret it, then.

The wording does seem a little awkward when it's printed out. However, I can't imagine anyone would seriously think Sarek was encouraging his son to go postal. Most of the time, "not controlling yourself" does not mean becoming physically violent. And we already know Vulcans have a much more strict definition of not controlling one's emotions. On any day of the week they would accuse most humans of not being in control (just ask Archer). Sarek should know his son better than anyone. So again, he wouldn't have said that if he thought Spock might missinterpret it as permission to go postal. Which Spock doesn't do anyway.
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  #104  
Old 09-19-2011, 03:15 PM
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Good to hear SOME type of movement..
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  #105  
Old 09-20-2011, 03:05 AM
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Sarek says that Spock should not suppress his anger, period. Whether he expresses his desire to see Nero dead in a hot or cool way when he says "no, not this time" is totally irrelevant. We all know Frost's "Fire and Ice", don't we?
I have sometimes written that Spock goes Romulan. They also don't simply unleash their nasty feelings but channel them. To use Kevin's words, they manage their dark feelings but this very process has created the fascistoid Romulan culture which makes emotional suppression appear in comparison very attractive.

If you guys are fine with it that's great but I find the perversion of the motives from the three best Trek movies TWOK, TUC and FC, that revenge is bad, disgusting. And as I have already said, it was certainly not intentional but sloppy work. As I personally have always liked Vulcan and Romulan stories I am more sensitive to writers' ignorance.

Change the line from "no, not this time" to "Captain, we cannot risk that they survive the singularity" or something else along the lines of "Edith Keeler must die" / "kill Mitchel while you still can" and everything is fine.

Last edited by horatio : 09-20-2011 at 03:08 AM.
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  #106  
Old 09-20-2011, 03:36 AM
samwiseb samwiseb is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by horatio View Post
Change the line from "no, not this time" to "Captain, we cannot risk that they survive the singularity" or something else along the lines of "Edith Keeler must die" / "kill Mitchel while you still can" and everything is fine.
Except that kind of change would fall completely flat. You'd be better off not even having a line for him once you do that. It would be like changing "I feel fine," or "go to hell." (Worse actually, since "go to hell" still seems a bit overrated.)
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  #107  
Old 09-20-2011, 05:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samwiseb View Post
Except that kind of change would fall completely flat. You'd be better off not even having a line for him once you do that. It would be like changing "I feel fine," or "go to hell." (Worse actually, since "go to hell" still see a bit overrated.)
I think myself that if there was a line like that in the film and everything else had been as it was I'd be thinking 'who do you think your trying to kid?' with that line anyway. I wouldn't be buying the supposed ethics of it anyway.
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  #108  
Old 09-20-2011, 08:16 AM
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why have we gone off topic :/
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  #109  
Old 09-20-2011, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevin View Post
I think myself that if there was a line like that in the film and everything else had been as it was I'd be thinking 'who do you think your trying to kid?' with that line anyway. I wouldn't be buying the supposed ethics of it anyway.
So you admit that Spock wanted to see Nero dead because he killed his mother. That's what I am saying and criticizing the entire time.
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  #110  
Old 09-20-2011, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by horatio View Post
So you admit that Spock wanted to see Nero dead because he killed his mother. That's what I am saying and criticizing the entire time.
Nero's death would always have been the net effect of not helping the ship. But that doesn't mean he's under the same level of crazed bloodlust that Picard was. Quinto plays it much more in a 'Eh? really?' fashion than the Rambo-esque 'Lemme shoot some Borg right NOW!!' fashion Picard did.

I'm pointing out that to me your suggested line alteration would actually make me suspect it even more because it would be significantly greater and more evasive BS than him just plainly saying that he personally doesn't agree with the rescue of the ship.

Which I don't think you intended it to mean.
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