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  #71  
Old 09-09-2011, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by horatio View Post
Guess I should stop editing too much.
Darn it.............you made one of my posts not make sense! As if I can't do a good enough job of that on my own!
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  #72  
Old 09-09-2011, 01:06 PM
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Cursing and sex is probably the biggest of them.

That's the strange nature of Liberalism. People don't like non comformist. I'm actively being recruited by those I associate with to indulge in the same activities. It seems they don't like the idea of someone chosing a different path than they or perhaps what they percieve as a "high path" or morality. I'm constantly encouraged break my standards rather than them respecting my standards. When I got my degree it was a combined effort from the guys in my class to haze me into going to a nuddy bar or something to that effect, which was similar to the previous time everyone wanted to get tatts or their ever persistence efforts to get me to drink because they found out I have never had any.

These rituals seem to be for bonding but they also serve to assimilate or force a change where one is not desired. I am thankful that my extended family doesn't share this need to change my stance on these things. While they know I'm extremely different and don't quite fit, they accept me (mostly) for who I am and so do I as to accepting them.

It's interesting to see that the liberal society takes the same attitude.
Rather respect the conservatism moral position they are trying to eradicate )as Horatio so savagely put it some months ago.Hence why it was a red flag to me.) the position or religion and morals values. It's a threat to their morals. I mean I can't remember the last or first time a public service announcement went on the air waves about using the "N" word. But the gay slur "F" word sure has gotten such special treatment. And rather than discourage ALL vulgarities they focus on this one alone...

I live in Houston Texas. It's a hodge-podge of culture and people. The people here have been said by northerners to be racially concious... And it's true But I have NEVER been called the "N" word in my years living here untill I started playing games on the interent and CHILD says boldly "I don't like N*****S. I was shocked. Then I remember this is the world society has endorsed...ignorance, thuggery and a lack of moral responsibility.
You can repeat your moral responsibility nonsense all day long, it's not like it was better in the good old days when women were beaten and black folks were flogged or lynched. This is the zero level of the conservative fantasy, that we have reached the best world already somewhen in the past. And it is obviously, no matter whether you judge it by health, GDP, war casualties or whatever, utterly wrong.

You can blame liberalism for all kind of nasty stuff but cursing or racism isn't among them. At least in my history books the Ku Klux Klan wasn't a club of politically correct (gee, liberals are folks who fear nothing more but to insult somebody) East Coast latte macchiato liberals.
The structure of racism is no different from the structure of sexism and homophobia and that's why people in here cry foul when you make homophobic statements. Bigotry and discrimination of all kind is wrong, f*ggot is as much as a bad word as n*gga.
I fail to understand why you, having been a victim of racism, are at the same time a perpetrator of homophobia. Usually having been wronged in a certain way makes you think twice about doing the same wrong thing yourself.

You might be surprised but I think it is great that you are abstinent from sex and drugs and don't care about people who press you into abandoning these principles. But when your high path includes such low things as homophobia you gotta live with objections. Pointing out that bigotry is wrong is not savage (you should know by now that the petty old trick, calling people who oppose intolerance savage or intolerant or whatever, doesn't work), it is about being your brother's keeper. I live in a country where homosexuals have been killed in concentration camps seventy years ago and I'll be damned if I don't have the guts to oppose homophobe folks.

Perhaps you think about all this when somebody calls you n*gga the next time and nobody "savagely" interferes.

Last edited by horatio : 09-09-2011 at 01:12 PM.
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  #73  
Old 09-09-2011, 02:07 PM
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Script writers gotta think from a 23rd century perspective where the goal has already been reached and not from a 21st century "push the boundaries" view.
That is it right there. If a gay character is explored on Trek then all these issues of persecution or the usual sort of angst that goes with these sort of stories would not be a factor. These issues earth would've moved past centuries ago, just as it moved past racism, waring social classes, etc.

A storyline I enjoyed in Enterprise was the Terra Prime episodes. It showed a fear that is usually inherent in these situations and showed humans behaving in a way you don't usually get to see in Trek. You see a bit of it in TNG with Obrien and the Cardassians, Kirk and the Klingons but in the end the lesson is learned. Tolerance. Learning to coexist and that's what Trek is about.

If there is a gay character in any new Trek then surely they'll just be a part of the fabric of that society as another poster pointed out. Any social issues concerning their sexuality surely would've been put to rest centuries ago. If not then I suppose you're screwed if you want to join Starfleet and your gay which is something I'd find particularly un-trekish.
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  #74  
Old 09-09-2011, 03:00 PM
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That's the idealism of Roddenberry's imagination but it begs to wonder will it get there the way we've been going? It's the same concept as the lack of necessity for money, removal of poverty and lack of disease and longlives..it's paradise and Utopia. And it's something that can be respected because it's a radical contrast to the world as it is now.
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  #75  
Old 09-09-2011, 07:09 PM
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That is it right there. If a gay character is explored on Trek then all these issues of persecution or the usual sort of angst that goes with these sort of stories would not be a factor. These issues earth would've moved past centuries ago, just as it moved past racism, waring social classes, etc.

A storyline I enjoyed in Enterprise was the Terra Prime episodes. It showed a fear that is usually inherent in these situations and showed humans behaving in a way you don't usually get to see in Trek. You see a bit of it in TNG with Obrien and the Cardassians, Kirk and the Klingons but in the end the lesson is learned. Tolerance. Learning to coexist and that's what Trek is about.

If there is a gay character in any new Trek then surely they'll just be a part of the fabric of that society as another poster pointed out. Any social issues concerning their sexuality surely would've been put to rest centuries ago. If not then I suppose you're screwed if you want to join Starfleet and your gay which is something I'd find particularly un-trekish.
You're forgetting that just because society moves forward, that doesn't mean every single member of that society has moved along with it. Think of the Marquis, or that human character on Voyager that commited a murder against a fellow crew member, was his name Suder? I don't remember. There could be conflict with a gay character, if he were a Bajoran, or if he were being persecuted by an individual who for personal reasons, maybe jealousy, or a negative personal experience with gays, turns antihomosexual. The story that results could be a lesson in tolerance, a reminder of why it is important.
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  #76  
Old 09-09-2011, 08:42 PM
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The story has already been resolved by the time Trek takes place I'd imagine. Gays aren't going anywhere, one way or the other people will have to resolve their prejudices or problems with gays. I mean a coming out of the closet story or some individual who has some problem with gays would seem a ridiculous story for Trek to me. These issues I'd imagine would be one hell of a throwback for gays living in that time. Someone on here mentioned that Lincoln was the only time someone referred to Uhura's ethnicity which to the crew of the Enterprise and to all of earth would seem a little strange I would think simply because those issues had been worked through in the past.

Maybe I'm wrong and sexuality in the 23rd century and 24th century is still an issue and starfleet has their own version of don't ask don't tell, but IMO that'd be just stupid.

Besides, the Marquis's issue was with the Cardassians kicking them out of their homes and the Federation not doing anything to help because of treaty issues. The guy on Voyager, who I believe Brad Duriff played, was a psychotic. Evidently mental illness is still a problem in the future. But who knows, sure you could concoct an antihomosexual story for some alien or human that's got a problem with two people of any species of the same sex being together, but isn't there more out there that would be far more interesting? The show's about humanity exploring the cosmos and as Q put it once, 'charting the unknown possibilities of existence' and all humanity should go along on that trip, or on that trek I guess you'd say. Anyway I think any sort of gay persecution story would be boring. If you're going to have a gay character, just have them there. You don't need to explain it or have some excuse to show it.

Watching Torchwood right now, it's interesting how they handle it.
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Last edited by Livingston : 09-09-2011 at 08:49 PM.
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  #77  
Old 09-09-2011, 08:44 PM
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That's the idealism of Roddenberry's imagination but it begs to wonder will it get there the way we've been going? It's the same concept as the lack of necessity for money, removal of poverty and lack of disease and longlives..it's paradise and Utopia. And it's something that can be respected because it's a radical contrast to the world as it is now.
You can say that again. Getting there in 300 years? I doubt it but I think it's possible, it may just take perhaps even millenia if we survive that long.
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  #78  
Old 09-09-2011, 09:49 PM
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Well, 300 years ago my husband could beat me and would control my access to money and society. Gay people didn't even exist in society (obviously they were there), Blacks weren't doing too well in the Americans, and there was constant violence between Catholics and Protestants.

Now all that has changed, at least in most of the world.

Imagine what another 300 years will do for our emotional evolution!
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  #79  
Old 09-10-2011, 01:01 AM
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Maybe I'm too much of a pessimist.
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  #80  
Old 09-10-2011, 02:29 AM
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There has been an upward trend in the past but this does not imply anything about the future. I personally think that the post WWII period has been our golden age. You certainly cannot talk about progress in a time during which people elect folks who don't mind if the state defaults on its liabilities.
Cracks are appearing everywhere and it is becoming evident that things cannot go on the way they have and that some major changes are ahead of us.
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