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  #61  
Old 09-09-2011, 12:15 PM
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Indeed and that's why I didn't particularly like New Voyages' "Blood and Fire", it was too focused on the gay characters.
Nobody but good ol' Abe Lincoln made a fuss about Uhura being black and that's how they should deal with potential homosexual characters as well.
Script writers gotta think from a 23rd century perspective where the goal has already been reached and not from a 21st century "push the boundaries" view.
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  #62  
Old 09-09-2011, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Captain Tom Coughlin View Post
And if they ever do introduce gay characters into Trek, that's probably the way to go with it. Be subtle, nobody in their world should care too much one way or the other. It should be a trivial fact about the character, no more important than hair color. I wouldn't write stories that focus on it too much. It should just be there.
And to be honest, that's the feel that most people seem to be giving out about trying to do it.

It's not about making it 'the gay show', it's about just letting it be part of the fabric of the society at that time.

The problem is that making the future is still informed by the issues around the matter in the present.

Hence, executives who get jittery about doing it, vague and unsatisfying episodes like 'The Outcast' which are not really very good examples of looking at the issue, and repeated tease/rejection of having any character who is essentially gay.
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  #63  
Old 09-09-2011, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by horatio View Post
Indeed and that's why I didn't particularly like New Voyages' "Blood and Fire", it was too focused on the gay characters.
Nobody but good ol' Abe Lincoln made a fuss about Uhura being black and that's how they should deal with potential homosexual characters as well.
Script writers gotta think from a 23rd century perspective where the goal has already been reached and not from a 21st century "push the boundaries" view.

Exactly, they didn't make a big deal about Uhura being black, even though in real life that was groundbreaking TV. In Universe she wasn't Uhura, the black bridge officer, she was just Uhura the bridge officer. To them, it was nothing. That's the way to handle a gay character too. It's just a character trait, like having green eyes or being left handed.
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  #64  
Old 09-09-2011, 12:25 PM
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And to be honest, that's the feel that most people seem to be giving out about trying to do it.

It's not about making it 'the gay show', it's about just letting it be part of the fabric of the society at that time.

The problem is that making the future is still informed by the issues around the matter in the present.

Hence, executives who get jittery about doing it, vague and unsatisfying episodes like 'The Outcast' which are not really very good examples of looking at the issue, and repeated tease/rejection of having any character who is essentially gay.
"The Outcast" deals with sexual identity in general and in a typical sci-fi fashion. What's bad about this except for the fact that it does not satisfy any direct representation demands?
Should one only deal with homosexuality or sexual identity in general in Trek by playing the representation game?

Suppose you are transsexual. What is more appealing to you, a story like "The Outcast" or the continuous presence of homosexual characters?
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  #65  
Old 09-09-2011, 12:31 PM
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It's not really saying anything out of the ordinary and it has the very lame ending whereby the status quo is restored and everyone goes back to where they were at the start of the dance.

It's not a universally praised LBGT episode (even by the cast and other groups).

Even in 'Angel One' when Riker makes his speech to Beata about the idea that it is evolution............not revolution, that is driving the society on that planet to reconsider the long held notions of female/male roles within that society they society is left without the reset. They keep the idea in mind, and you get the sense that though it may be slow, there may be the beginnings of change on that world.

In 'The Outcast' Riker makes his speech...............Soran then is forced into the procedure then.........that's it.

There's no particular ending that suggest anything other than that planet will continue to do the same to others afterwards. Thus, no progress.
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  #66  
Old 09-09-2011, 12:31 PM
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"The Outcast" deals with sexual identity in general and in a typical sci-fi fashion. What's bad about this except for the fact that it does not satisfy any direct representation demands?
Should one only deal with homosexuality or sexual identity in general in Trek by playing the representation game?

Suppose you are transsexual. What is more appealing to you, a story like "The Outcast" or the continuous presence of homosexual characters?
I don't think that's the problem with it. It's just a matter of execution. That episode just rings kind of hollow for me. It's not one that I rewatch often.
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  #67  
Old 09-09-2011, 12:36 PM
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Sure, it did literally pu*sy out as women played the aliens and Berman is definitely to blame for this. But the script is fine in my opinion.
I guess I simply like this old-school sci-fi idea of approaching an issue not too directly.
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  #68  
Old 09-09-2011, 12:38 PM
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Yeah, that's a much better done episode about the issue it's about.

But I think sometimes you also can dispense with the lateral approach and sometimes just hit it head on and let it explode. If you come in too laterally you can miss.................which I think 'The Outcast' does.
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  #69  
Old 09-09-2011, 12:38 PM
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How does cursing, sex, tats, or homosexuality affect you personally?
Cursing and sex is probably the biggest of them.

That's the strange nature of Liberalism. People don't like non comformist. I'm actively being recruited by those I associate with to indulge in the same activities. It seems they don't like the idea of someone chosing a different path than they or perhaps what they percieve as a "high path" or morality. I'm constantly encouraged break my standards rather than them respecting my standards. When I got my degree it was a combined effort from the guys in my class to haze me into going to a nuddy bar or something to that effect, which was similar to the previous time everyone wanted to get tatts or their ever persistence efforts to get me to drink because they found out I have never had any.

These rituals seem to be for bonding but they also serve to assimilate or force a change where one is not desired. I am thankful that my extended family doesn't share this need to change my stance on these things. While they know I'm extremely different and don't quite fit, they accept me (mostly) for who I am and so do I as to accepting them.

It's interesting to see that the liberal society takes the same attitude.
Rather respect the conservatism moral position they are trying to eradicate )as Horatio so savagely put it some months ago.Hence why it was a red flag to me.) the position or religion and morals values. It's a threat to their morals. I mean I can't remember the last or first time a public service announcement went on the air waves about using the "N" word. But the gay slur "F" word sure has gotten such special treatment. And rather than discourage ALL vulgarities they focus on this one alone...

I live in Houston Texas. It's a hodge-podge of culture and people. The people here have been said by northerners to be racially concious... And it's true But I have NEVER been called the "N" word in my years living here untill I started playing games on the interent and CHILD says boldly "I don't like N*****S. I was shocked. Then I remember this is the world society has endorsed...ignorance, thuggery and a lack of moral responsibility.
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  #70  
Old 09-09-2011, 12:41 PM
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Yeah, that's a much better done episode about the issue it's about.

But I think sometimes you also can dispense with the lateral approach and sometimes just hit it head on and let it explode. If you come in too laterally you can miss.................which I think 'The Outcast' does.
Guess I should stop editing too much.
I deleted the line because I thought it did not fit too well into the indirect approach category but as you said the "kill yourself at sixty story" was far better done than "The Outcast" and it also works in an indirect fashion as you are forced to ask yourself all kind of questions after you have seen the episode.
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