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  #31  
Old 09-05-2011, 12:57 PM
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Saquist Saquist is offline
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Originally Posted by Enterprise Captain View Post
There was no nudity but that is the only time I can remember in Star Trek that two characters had intercourse on screen. Every other time it was only implied. For some reason Saquist has implied that if this new Star Trek series has a gay main character that there would be more intercourse in the series, I'm curious why he believes this.

Uniformitarianism seems to exist not just in the field of science but also in social science too as a miss perception of reality.

For some reason scientist though (even after looking closely at the moon) that the Earth had never been struck by massive objects, that collisions of such size were exceedingly rare untill less than 15 years ago.

---

It just goes to show you that often despite the obvious we still see what we want to see. The Hem-lines have been rising for years and of course the resident uniformitarianist here are thinking it's been mostly the same for the last 40 years. Nevermind the softcore trend on cable, the wardrobe malfunctions of all kinds (planned or not), Never mind porn being the most success business world wide. Money is the prime motivator of society, not ethics or morality and will continue to get worse as time goes on just as the narcotics issue will continue to degrade just as the issue of sexually transmitted diseases will progress because there is a virtually unrestrained motivator present.
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  #32  
Old 09-05-2011, 01:44 PM
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Of course, what we got so far was miss perception XD - time for some mister perception
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  #33  
Old 09-06-2011, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by chator View Post
We have no idea what a new Trek series might be like. It wouldn't necessarily follow the same ethic as Trek series in the Berman/TNG era, where sex was only implied, not shown.

A movie has much more liberty to be sexually explicit, but we rarely got any sex scenes in Trek movies. Even in Abrams' Trek the most we got was a bedroom scene between Orion Starfleet girl and Kirk 2.0. Abrams' quote implies he would not be keen on a heavy on-screen romance between two gay characters. It seems the only romance fans are interested in seeing in Trek XII, would be a continuation of the Spock/Uhura thing.
It's true we don't know exactly what a new Star Trek series will be like but I doubt it's going to turn in to soft core porn as Saquist seems to think. Then again his definition of soft core porn maybe different then mine as he claims Enterprise was "salacious." I can understand why Abrams' would not want to just throw in a gay couple for the sake of it because it is really hard to develop relationships in such a short period of time in a film. That's why I think a series would be a lot better place for such a relationship.

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Originally Posted by Captain Tom Coughlin View Post
I honestly don't care much one way or the other. As long as they are well written, interesting characters. That's what I want out of a series.
I agree, that is the main thing.

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Originally Posted by Saquist View Post
Like I said. Trek went there with the straight, it's easy to foresee a homosexual counterpart because the gay agenda wants it. This is equality for them and seeing how hard it's being pushed in Trek Fandom for the Gay Captain it's likely to happen.
Trek went there with straight relationships how? I came up with one example you have provided none. Fan fiction obviously doesn't dictate what happens in Star Trek otherwise we would have seen a gay couple a long time ago.

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Originally Posted by Saquist View Post
Star Trek Odyssey went just as close to...
It's really sick though to see the more family end of Trek turning into this. That's why Enterprises shanagins were just as salacious.
Again you are using fan fiction as an example which has nothing to do with the series. What in Enterprise was "salacious." in your opinion?

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Originally Posted by horatio View Post
Only people who are totally oblivious of the existence of TOS could claim that another Trek show is "salacious".
We tend to forget how ahead of its time Star Trek was in this regard because it is tame by today's standard.

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Originally Posted by Saquist View Post
Uniformitarianism seems to exist not just in the field of science but also in social science too as a miss perception of reality.

For some reason scientist though (even after looking closely at the moon) that the Earth had never been struck by massive objects, that collisions of such size were exceedingly rare untill less than 15 years ago.

---

It just goes to show you that often despite the obvious we still see what we want to see. The Hem-lines have been rising for years and of course the resident uniformitarianist here are thinking it's been mostly the same for the last 40 years. Nevermind the softcore trend on cable, the wardrobe malfunctions of all kinds (planned or not), Never mind porn being the most success business world wide. Money is the prime motivator of society, not ethics or morality and will continue to get worse as time goes on just as the narcotics issue will continue to degrade just as the issue of sexually transmitted diseases will progress because there is a virtually unrestrained motivator present.
Well I personally think society is still a little backwards. I don't understand why nudity and sexuality is such a big issue and violence seems to be so widely excepted. A person in a film can run into a room and shoot down 5,6, or 20 people and that's not such a big deal but you show a female nipple and it's the end of the world. I don't think the media is to blame for the rise of STDs. I think the attitude around sexuality needs to change and that will lead to better sex education which will help slow down the spread of STDs. Why are so many parents afraid to talk to their kids about sexual issues. Then they don't want their kids to be educated in school, it just doesn't make any sense. There are tons of stories such as this. I personally think things have gotten better over the last 40 years despite your belief they have gotten worse but we still have a ways to go.
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  #34  
Old 09-06-2011, 10:32 PM
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Saquist Saquist is offline
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[quote=Enterprise Captain;317695]

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Trek went there with straight relationships how? I came up with one example you have provided none.
Do we NEED MORE than one example for "went there with straight relationships? qualification. Doesn't ONE, justify the statement?

Quote:
Fan fiction obviously doesn't dictate what happens in Star Trek otherwise we would have seen a gay couple a long time ago.
Dictate...I didn't say dictate.
The influence is there though.



Quote:
Again you are using fan fiction as an example which has nothing to do with the series. What in Enterprise was "salacious." in your opinion?
Rear nudity and wiping each other down with ointment is not family friendly viewing.

Quote:
Well I personally think society is still a little backwards. I don't understand why nudity and sexuality is such a big issue and violence seems to be so widely excepted.
I analyzed the seeming contradiction and it's not incomprehensible.
What it is, is a readily available red herring. It's distraction. Sex and Violence really aren't on the same level. They are totally different behaviors but when a person mentions sex the automatic response from the opponent has always been..."what about violence?" instead of actually justifying lewd behavior in of itself. I had this discussion on Gateworld. They made the error of assuming that my argument was that Stargate was Family Friendly (and out come the scenes of severed heads from stargate Atlantis) But they didn't think. I wasn't claiming that it was family friendly just that it wasn't ANTI family but they wanted to justify the lewdy sexual DISPLAYS in SGU so they went straight for the Violence in SGA. It's perpetual.

This is hostage taking. And it's an awful practice in arguments. We take something the other person seemingly likes or cares about and puts it infront of their point as a defense instead of a true comparison. Horatio post a bunch of oddly dressed women from TOS and suddenly this equals naked or scantily clad people wiping each other down in a sauna SORRY (DECONTAMINATION CHAMBER)

Quote:
[A person in a film can run into a room and shoot down 5,6, or 20 people and that's not such a big deal but you show a female nipple and it's the end of the world. I don't think the media is to blame for the rise of STDs. I think the attitude around sexuality needs to change and that will lead to better sex education which will help slow down the spread of STDs. Why are so many parents afraid to talk to their kids about sexual issues. Then they don't want their kids to be educated in school, it just doesn't make any sense. There are tons of stories such as this. I personally think things have gotten better over the last 40 years despite your belief they have gotten worse but we still have a ways to go.
link didn't work.
According to sources the AIDS epidemic hasn't gotten better but merely has stabilized at an incredibly high range. from 8 million to 30 million people living with AIDS in the last 30-40 years....

It's a testament to how stupid humans are. When merely NOT having sex or using a condom can protect they are still driven by primal instincts instead of their heads.
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  #35  
Old 09-07-2011, 12:38 AM
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horatio horatio is offline
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Oddly dressed is a pretty heavy euphemism.
On design sketches Mudd's women were labelled "space hookers" and Orion slave girls were "green animal women" that "like being taken advantage of", i.e. they were sex slaves as well as a product of Pike's fantasy. Furthermore on every second planet Kirk screwed the girl in "Theiss-wear" which, in case you are not aware of it, was designed by William Ware Theiss after the motto (I am paraphrasing) "the more the piece of cloth seems to slip away from the body of the woman the more sexy it is".
And last but not least, there were shots like this with an obvious SM connotation. And all this should be even comparable to decon rubbing?





I don't know about you but in this shot a dog is present which makes me not really think about sex. He is the innocent bystander which makes the officers behave because they could not fall over each other while the dog is watching.
OK, I cheated a bit here, of course there are other decon shots without Porthos like e.g. in the pilot.

Yet I still didn't see half-naked people in every second episode or hyper-horny collared captains. What happened in ENT are peanuts compared to TOS which is undeniably the most sex-centered Trek show.

What we could discuss though is whether "Mudd's Women" wasn't a decent story about youth mania or whether "The Cage", besides being also a bit about women wanting so badly to be beautiful, didn't stand in the tradition of early sci-fi influenced a bit by psychoanalysis (think e.g. about "Forbidden Planet" and its monster from the id/subconsciousness). In short, many TOS stories that dealt with sex dealt with it, behind the blunt sexism on the surface, in an intelligent fashion whereas TNG-era shows had too much of soapish touch. To make it more concrete, wasn't Pike and Vina wasn't a far more interesting relationship than Worf and Dax or Trip and T'Pol precisely because we weren't so close and used to the characters, because "The Cage" as well as early Trek in general until TNG's third season often kept a productive distance to the characters?

Last edited by horatio : 09-07-2011 at 12:43 AM.
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  #36  
Old 09-07-2011, 04:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Saquist View Post
Do we NEED MORE than one example for "went there with straight relationships? qualification. Doesn't ONE, justify the statement?

Dictate...I didn't say dictate.
The influence is there though.

Rear nudity and wiping each other down with ointment is not family friendly viewing.

I analyzed the seeming contradiction and it's not incomprehensible.
What it is, is a readily available red herring. It's distraction. Sex and Violence really aren't on the same level. They are totally different behaviors but when a person mentions sex the automatic response from the opponent has always been..."what about violence?" instead of actually justifying lewd behavior in of itself. I had this discussion on Gateworld. They made the error of assuming that my argument was that Stargate was Family Friendly (and out come the scenes of severed heads from stargate Atlantis) But they didn't think. I wasn't claiming that it was family friendly just that it wasn't ANTI family but they wanted to justify the lewdy sexual DISPLAYS in SGU so they went straight for the Violence in SGA. It's perpetual.

This is hostage taking. And it's an awful practice in arguments. We take something the other person seemingly likes or cares about and puts it infront of their point as a defense instead of a true comparison. Horatio post a bunch of oddly dressed women from TOS and suddenly this equals naked or scantily clad people wiping each other down in a sauna SORRY (DECONTAMINATION CHAMBER)

link didn't work.
According to sources the AIDS epidemic hasn't gotten better but merely has stabilized at an incredibly high range. from 8 million to 30 million people living with AIDS in the last 30-40 years....

It's a testament to how stupid humans are. When merely NOT having sex or using a condom can protect they are still driven by primal instincts instead of their heads.
So what is your argument here then? Or is this weak family friendly and seeing Jolene Blalock's "awfully nice bum" on TV adds to the AIDS epidemic BS argument just to distract from the real issue here? Your homophobic statement that started this discussion:

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Originally Posted by Saquist View Post
I won't be watching it.
Society is becoming increasing liberal in this regard and the last thing I want to see is two men getting it on because that's what it usually comes to even with straight interactions. The show might even be good from what I read.
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  #37  
Old 09-08-2011, 04:30 AM
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Saquist Saquist is offline
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So what is your argument here then? Or is this weak family friendly and seeing Jolene Blalock's "awfully nice bum" on TV adds to the AIDS epidemic BS argument just to distract from the real issue here? Your homophobic statement that started this discussion:

Hmmm. Clearly you're trying to bait me....
You know what my argument here is.
My statement was principled not homophobic.
Having a Gay person on the show will eventually lead to escalation of showing sexual acts on screen just as it did with straight interactions. Cut and Dry.

My position is that THE MEDIA has far too much power to influence our young and uses FAR too little responsibility. They are litterally pushing an agenda forcing those that like the franchise to either conform to their view or completely right off the genre because of principle. We're not given a third option of say...black out for certain material like music will songs. It's an ultimatum. Like what we give you or don't watch.
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  #38  
Old 09-08-2011, 07:31 AM
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Funny how you use this "sex is bad and immoral" stuff so selectively against gay folks or ENT but utterly ignore that TOS was by far the most sexed-up Trek show. In other words, your opinion precedes your arguments which makes the arguments pointless. About your opinion, people who write about a "gay agenda" cannot complain when they get correctly laballed homophobes.
You can suger-coat it all you want, homophobia remains homophobia.

By the way, Trek has indeed principles, among them the principle of egalitarianism, and it also has responsibilities, among them the responsibility to be as progressive as it has once been.
As Trek is a sci-fi franchise in which Earth is united and living peacefully together with species of all different kinds (I use this very brief description to point out that I am not engaged in a a selective reading) racism, sexism, homophobia, anti-UN-sentiment and warmongering, not incidentally all the ugly crap you find on the right , is antithetical to Trek.
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  #39  
Old 09-08-2011, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Saquist View Post
Hmmm. Clearly you're trying to bait me....
You know what my argument here is.
My statement was principled not homophobic.
Having a Gay person on the show will eventually lead to escalation of showing sexual acts on screen just as it did with straight interactions. Cut and Dry.
You stated that Star Trek has already become "salacious" with its straight characters and you claim that you have an issue with this salacious content. If that is what you have an issue with then what does it matter if there is a gay character or not when the franchise is already salacious.

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Originally Posted by Saquist View Post
My position is that THE MEDIA has far too much power to influence our young and uses FAR too little responsibility. They are litterally pushing an agenda forcing those that like the franchise to either conform to their view or completely right off the genre because of principle. We're not given a third option of say...black out for certain material like music will songs. It's an ultimatum. Like what we give you or don't watch.
What agenda is the media pushing? The media is not forcing you to conform to their view and they aren't forcing you to like their material. Why should they allow you to censor or change their product? You don't like it, don't watch. If you don't want your kids watching it don't let them, it's as simple as that. Parenting is far more influential then the media.
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  #40  
Old 09-08-2011, 09:00 AM
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It's always two men doing it that's the problem.

Lesbians or lipstick lesbianism or implied lesbianism or leather dominatrix Kira etc, etc, blah, blah, blah. That's fine, because it excites the teenage boys and their dads. Skimpy to non-existent outfits for the ladies to wear have ALWAYS been fine (and encouraged) in Trek and rarely has anyone strongly complained. Implied sexuality is also ok (Kirk can put his boots back on in 'Elaan of Troyius' and everyone knows how he soothed her tantrum! Heck, Yar can even do a robot when drunk in 'The Naked Now'
and it's cool enough for the most part) in Trek.

But make it a skoosh overt.....................

And the minute it's two dudes..............society will crumble if we don't prevent it from airing!!!

It's amusing.

It's not like a new Trek show would air on HBO anything, it would be network, so it would still be miles tamer than anything you can see on cable TV shows.
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