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  #21  
Old 03-25-2011, 07:31 PM
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My apologies for my over-reaction, EC. It was uncalled for.
No worries.

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Originally Posted by Saquist View Post
Yeah...but that's really spliting hairs.
It's like saying "not all politicians are are liars."
I'm surprised you would make a discriminatory statement like that.

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I'm surprised you guys would jump into this considering the conflict it's been known to incite. It's one thing to have a meaningful discussion on the issue but it doesn't sound like that's where it's going.
It was resolved quite peacefully I thought. If people want to further discuss my position feel free to ask me.
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  #22  
Old 03-25-2011, 08:14 PM
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I'm surprised you would make a discriminatory statement like that.
The word Discrimination and it's social implications is largely a political tool.
The truth is discrimination is a common every day occurrence that absolutely every human being on Earth does. It actually serves a logical purpose in the animal kingdom. Humans are the only animals that subject themselves to the dangerous rationale that discrimination as a whole is wrong. Notice birds don't hesitate to scatter when you approach...just because you're human. Humans, like birds, build a profile of behavior culturally. When one flees they all flee and they learn to identify that flight stimulie with a threat.

As a black man I don't get offended when a white woman locks the car door when I walk by. Blacks are the largest population in US prisons at more than 2 million and in each state we represent more in the prison that we do in the actual general population. We have a reputation as thugs and gangsters and violent. People are looking to not be victims and so they take their ques from the "flock" around them. Why take the risk just because society says "discrimination is wrong"? It's your life and true to form people may say discrimination is wrong but they do it any way in similar situations.

I'm a person that believes that stereotypes exist for a reason. I live in an America where Blacks are following Malcolm X's legacy of solider like brutal-ism not the Martin Luther King dream of peace and equality. If you want to change your stereotype (if its possible) then change your behavior because even pigeons learn to approach people if they don't threaten them but that takes the effort of an entire population.

Atheist are regarded as Angry Atheist.
Theist are regarded as ignorant.

They are largely true stereotypes and it's really futile to point out that not all are so. It's an obvious observation. But if you want to change that general view (like I do whether viewed as a black man or theist) I show people my mind and reasonableness and not my anger because just being offended by a stereotype will never repair that reputation.

I like it that people can't tell I'm black over the phone.
I like it that people say I act white.
I like it that people ask me if I'm from up North.
I like it that people call me weird because I like Sci Fi
I like that my family doesn't get me because I'm into science.
I like it that other blacks think that I'm a failure in the race because I date outside my race.

They all know I'm no a threat to them.
I do more work against stereotypes than anyone I know because I don't ignore them and pretend they aren't there. I work hard at not being a stereotype and it's too bad other people don't but that's the price of popularity but you can't have it both ways.
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  #23  
Old 03-26-2011, 05:57 AM
I-Am-Zim I-Am-Zim is offline
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Saq, you are a very wise man indeed.
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  #24  
Old 03-26-2011, 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Saquist View Post
The word Discrimination and it's social implications is largely a political tool.
The truth is discrimination is a common every day occurrence that absolutely every human being on Earth does. It actually serves a logical purpose in the animal kingdom. Humans are the only animals that subject themselves to the dangerous rationale that discrimination as a whole is wrong. Notice birds don't hesitate to scatter when you approach...just because you're human. Humans, like birds, build a profile of behavior culturally. When one flees they all flee and they learn to identify that flight stimulie with a threat.

As a black man I don't get offended when a white woman locks the car door when I walk by. Blacks are the largest population in US prisons at more than 2 million and in each state we represent more in the prison that we do in the actual general population. We have a reputation as thugs and gangsters and violent. People are looking to not be victims and so they take their ques from the "flock" around them. Why take the risk just because society says "discrimination is wrong"? It's your life and true to form people may say discrimination is wrong but they do it any way in similar situations.

I'm a person that believes that stereotypes exist for a reason. I live in an America where Blacks are following Malcolm X's legacy of solider like brutal-ism not the Martin Luther King dream of peace and equality. If you want to change your stereotype (if its possible) then change your behavior because even pigeons learn to approach people if they don't threaten them but that takes the effort of an entire population.

Atheist are regarded as Angry Atheist.
Theist are regarded as ignorant.

They are largely true stereotypes and it's really futile to point out that not all are so. It's an obvious observation. But if you want to change that general view (like I do whether viewed as a black man or theist) I show people my mind and reasonableness and not my anger because just being offended by a stereotype will never repair that reputation.

I like it that people can't tell I'm black over the phone.
I like it that people say I act white.
I like it that people ask me if I'm from up North.
I like it that people call me weird because I like Sci Fi
I like that my family doesn't get me because I'm into science.
I like it that other blacks think that I'm a failure in the race because I date outside my race.

They all know I'm no a threat to them.
I do more work against stereotypes than anyone I know because I don't ignore them and pretend they aren't there. I work hard at not being a stereotype and it's too bad other people don't but that's the price of popularity but you can't have it both ways.
I wasn't offended by your previous statement just surprised. I know discrimination and stereotypes exist but the irony of your statement above is that you claim to fight against stereotypes yet you used one yourself. Isn't that a bit hypocritical?
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  #25  
Old 03-27-2011, 01:40 AM
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People believe all sorts of things. I hear some people believe there is this guy with a big white beard that sits in the clouds and controls everything.
I am an atheist and also find the idea of a white-bearded man sitting in the skies preposterous but I don't think that this very God notion is really that wide-spread. After all for Jews God is the absolute and that's why his name must not be speaken out and for Christians God even dies! This is definitely far more complex and rich than the Zeus-like picture of an old wise man sitting on clouds.
Although I am a harcore materialist I have far more respect for Judaism and Christianity and the ideas and wisdom inherent to them than for intellectualy and spiritually shallow fellow-atheists or even worse, for fundamentalistic atheists like Harris or Hitchens who are not one iota better than suicide bombers and crusaders.
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  #26  
Old 03-27-2011, 06:47 AM
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I am an atheist and also find the idea of a white-bearded man sitting in the skies preposterous but I don't think that this very God notion is really that wide-spread. After all for Jews God is the absolute and that's why his name must not be speaken out and for Christians God even dies! This is definitely far more complex and rich than the Zeus-like picture of an old wise man sitting on clouds.
You're probably right.


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Although I am a harcore materialist I have far more respect for Judaism and Christianity and the ideas and wisdom inherent to them than for intellectualy and spiritually shallow fellow-atheists or even worse, for fundamentalistic atheists like Harris or Hitchens who are not one iota better than suicide bombers and crusaders.
I think this statement is out of line. You may not agree with Harris or Hitchens ideas but neither of them condone violence. They're not rallying people to strap bombs to themselves or recruiting armies to kill "believers." They have their right to freedom of speak just like anyone else.
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  #27  
Old 03-27-2011, 09:06 AM
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They have the right to express their Islamophonia, Harris has the right to think about the potential merits of torture and I have the right to call them fundamentalist atheists.
The difference is that I don't want to lay the Middle East to waste or describe the merits of "interrogation" techniques used by every intelligence service on this planet. I don't condone violence whereas they do.
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  #28  
Old 03-27-2011, 09:44 AM
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They have the right to express their Islamophonia, Harris has the right to think about the potential merits of torture and I have the right to call them fundamentalist atheists.
The difference is that I don't want to lay the Middle East to waste or describe the merits of "interrogation" techniques used by every intelligence service on this planet. I don't condone violence whereas they do.
I think you are misunderstanding what these people are saying:

http://www.samharris.org/site/full_t...-controversy2/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOyAik-AfTM

I don't condone violence either but unfortunately our world is a complex place. We tend to boil things down to the very basics of black and white when we have discussions because it is easier for us to relate that way but there is a lot of grey. In this case I believe calling these two men just as bad as terrorist and crusaders is just as bad as calling all muslims terrorists and crusaders, both are not so.
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  #29  
Old 03-27-2011, 10:06 AM
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You might wanna read some stuff by Hedges, he neatly pointed out that these folks are the counterparts to religious fundamentalists.

They claim to not have any ideology besides trust in science and technology and whenever somebody presents himself as unideological you should go to yellow red. Not at least because Hitchens evolved from a left-wing nut into a right-wing nut and still presents himself as some kind of wiser lefty. What a vain and untruthful jerk.
Sure, science and technology have significantly improved our lives but they don't tell us how to live together. Technocracy or rather technologycracy is the main error of the intellectual lightweight Harris.

Last edited by horatio : 03-27-2011 at 10:09 AM.
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  #30  
Old 03-27-2011, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by I-Am-Zim View Post
Saq, you are a very wise man indeed.
Not me I'm just jaded.

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Originally Posted by Enterprise Captain View Post
I wasn't offended by your previous statement just surprised. I know discrimination and stereotypes exist but the irony of your statement above is that you claim to fight against stereotypes yet you used one yourself. Isn't that a bit hypocritical?
Why? At any time did I say that stereotypes are wrong? I refer you back to these statements you missed.

Quote:
It actually serves a logical purpose
Quote:
People are looking to not be victims
Quote:
I'm a person that believes that stereotypes exist for a reason.
A stereotype is merely a social reputation. Perhaps you looked past the negtive connotations we were all speaking of such as.

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We have a reputation as thugs and gangsters and violent.
Quote:
I'm surprised you would make a discriminatory statement like that.
Accepting that stereotypes exist isn't the same as acknowledging what ever truth may or may not be in stereotypes. I would have thought by some of the examples of context that it was understood I was fighting against negative reputation such as those I mentioned. After all Blacks may or may not have big penises but that is not a stereotype I chose to fight. My apologies that I didn't spell that particular area out I do miss somethings.

To "work" against a stereotype is to make efforts to change the truth and reality and perceptions of how a group is viewed.
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