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  #41  
Old 01-29-2011, 07:45 AM
Steve Gennarelli Steve Gennarelli is offline
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I think Picard's inspired speach was great, but if it were just in another movie !!!

R'uafo was such a dark, terroristic character...F. Murray Abraham may have been shooting to be the next "Khan" but he and the screenwriters/Frakes took us too far from reality for me and many viewers to even care.
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  #42  
Old 01-29-2011, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by horatio View Post
Yes, it is that simple. Cynicism is no counterargument to Picard's ethical correct behaviour.

The movie is not perfect but I don't understand why people dislike that Picard does the right thing. If the Federation behaved liked that, if it would resettle races for their own benefit than it would not be the Federation but an Empire. And despite plenty of great stories which dealt with grey areas the Federation is fundamentally good. It is not perfect, it is flawed but it is not evil.
It's not cynicism - there can be a variety of reasons that a population (of any size) might have to relocate, either by choice or perhaps by persuasion from a larger society. It's not necessarily an 'evil' thing, but INS constructs it very simply that way.

Is that right, is that wrong? Well, INS doesn't really give much discourse on the matter.

Yes, Picard does the 'right' thing - but since it's a no-brainer anyway there's no particular challenge to him or the crew. I never said I disliked that he did that. Only that the challenge is.............well not one really. Which would be fine, but my only issue is I think the film thinks it's more challenging that it actually is. A ten year old could tell you it's 'wrong' the way the film is constructed.

On the more interesting question of resettling - well, we know from the Cardassian DMZ experience that the Federation was prepared to make it's own citizens either move or become subjects of a more repressive Empire in order to negotiate a peace for itself. That is forcing people to relocate, and I don't remember Picard having a problem with the Federation doing that when it was happening. Which is why I can't 100% invest in his concern for the Baku, which I don't doubt was real, but the fact he was hot for Anij might have played a part.
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Last edited by kevin : 01-29-2011 at 09:59 AM.
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  #43  
Old 01-29-2011, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve Gennarelli View Post
R'uafo was such a dark, terroristic character...F. Murray Abraham may have been shooting to be the next "Khan" but he and the screenwriters/Frakes took us too far from reality for me and many viewers to even care.
I gotta say - and obviously, to each their own - but I find him quite cartooney by the end of the film. Especially once his real reasons present themselves.
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  #44  
Old 01-29-2011, 10:26 AM
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horatio horatio is offline
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It's not cynicism - there can be a variety of reasons that a population (of any size) might have to relocate, either by choice or perhaps by persuasion from a larger society. It's not necessarily an 'evil' thing, but INS constructs it very simply that way.

Is that right, is that wrong? Well, INS doesn't really give much discourse on the matter.

Yes, Picard does the 'right' thing - but since it's a no-brainer anyway there's no particular challenge to him or the crew. I never said I disliked that he did that. Only that the challenge is.............well not one really. Which would be fine, but my only issue is I think the film thinks it's more challenging that it actually is. A ten year old could tell you it's 'wrong' the way the film is constructed.

On the more interesting question of resettling - well, we know from the Cardassian DMZ experience that the Federation was prepared to make it's own citizens either move or become subjects of a more repressive Empire in order to negotiate a peace for itself. That is forcing people to relocate, and I don't remember Picard having a problem with the Federation doing that when it was happening. Which is why I can't 100% invest in his concern for the Baku, which I don't doubt was real, but the fact he was hot for Anij might have played a part.
So Picard only cared for the Baku because he was horny? It can't get more cynical than that.
I don't think that I have to point out the legal and ethical differences between the relocation of Federation citizens and the Baku who are non-Federation citizens. The former are represented via their local governments and via their representatives in the Federation council whereas the latter are subjogated by an alien power which has no right to govern their affairs and forcefully relocate them.
You can't compare an illegal and unethical act to a conventional peace negotiation which entails a redrawing of borderlines. The only error of the Federation in the Maquis business was either that the border colonists weren't heard loudly enough in the council (but we don't know anything about that) as well as perhaps a lack of support for the "stay-behind" colonists who did not want to leave their homes. But relations with the Cardassians have always been uneasy so it is difficult to exert diplomatic pressure.
Peace has a price. Sometimes it is accepting a strategical disadvantage like in the case of Romulans and cloaking technology, sometimes it is giving away territory. Some pissed off border colonists who they didn't get out of there and are mistreated by the Cardassians are a small price. And to come back toe the Baku and stay within the metaphor, stealing from other people and then paying with it for your affairs is always too high a price for peace. Not to mention that the Sona were anything but reliable allies for the Dominion War. Why not simply hire some mercenaries if your forces thin out? You gotta pay for your war or your peace, not somebody else.
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  #45  
Old 01-29-2011, 10:43 AM
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So Picard only cared for the Baku because he was horny? It can't get more cynical than that.
I should probably have put a little smiley or something there because it was a half joke...............but then if she wasn't there...............one wonders.

Quote:
I don't think that I have to point out the legal and ethical differences between the relocation of Federation citizens and the Baku who are non-Federation citizens. The former are represented via their local governments and via their representatives in the Federation council whereas the latter are subjogated by an alien power which has no right to govern their affairs and forcefully relocate them.
No, you don't - which is why I pointed out that there are different reasons for making people relocate and some are more interesting than others.

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You can't compare an illegal and unethical act to a conventional peace negotiation which entails a redrawing of borderlines.
It still demonstrates Federation willingness to sellout it's own citizens for larger considerations. I'm not saying under the circumstances that's wrong. Just that that's what it was.

If powers are prepared to do things like that publicly with their own, it's really not a stretch they may do it secretly either. With folks they shouldn't be getting involved with.

Quote:
The only error of the Federation in the Maquis business was either that the border colonists weren't heard loudly enough in the council (but we don't know anything about that) as well as perhaps a lack of support for the "stay-behind" colonists who did not want to leave their homes. But relations with the Cardassians have always been uneasy so it is difficult to exert diplomatic pressure.
To which, we also don't know that they were heard...........but totally disregarded in the pursuit of the peace treaty.

Quote:
Peace has a price. Sometimes it is accepting a strategical disadvantage like in the case of Romulans and cloaking technology, sometimes it is giving away territory. Some pissed off border colonists who they didn't get out of there and are mistreated by the Cardassians are a small price.
Which maybe true if you're sitting with your feet back up on the little 'ol Paradise called Earth living the dream. Maybe not if your one of the people pissed off by your own government and left hanging.

Quote:
And to come back toe the Baku and stay within the metaphor, stealing from other people and then paying with it for your affairs is always too high a price for peace. Not to mention that the Sona were anything but reliable allies for the Dominion War. Why not simply hire some mercenaries if your forces thin out? You gotta pay for your war or your peace, not somebody else.
Which is in fact, much more interesting to me personally than the cartoon shenanigans that make up much of INS. Alas, that aspect isn't really dwelt upon much.
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  #46  
Old 01-29-2011, 11:03 AM
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What happens when, this is now more a thing of the past, coal stocks are discovered underground? People are moved. Here we don't talk about stupid coal but peace.
There is a trade-off, the interests of the entire community vs. the interests of a smaller subgroup. There is no general answer except that the people who are sold-out as you said are compensated. The devil is in the detail and those detais weren't adressed in DS9. We did not learn whether the colonists were offered equally or similarly good territories somewhere else in the Federation or whether their non-movable assets on the planet they left e.g. agricultural investments into the soil or buildings or past terraforming work, were compensated for.
But that's boring stuff which doesn't make good drama. All I want to say is that once you think about it DS9's Maquis is not that deep and that great and that well-thought of either. INS was a simple moral tale, nothing complex, nothing fancy but the kind of Trekish stuff which finally made it to the big screen. And spirit-wise it is pure TNG ... except for the hummingbird and the little weasel thingy and so on.

Last edited by horatio : 01-29-2011 at 11:09 AM.
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  #47  
Old 01-29-2011, 11:13 AM
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kevin kevin is offline
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All I want to say is that once you think about it DS9's Maquis is not that deep and that great and that well-thought of either. INS was a simple moral tale, nothing complex, nothing fancy but the kind of Trekish stuff which finally made it to the big screen. And spirit-wise it is pure TNG.
That's cool - I'm obviously not saying that anyone should agree with me.

At the end of the day it's a couple of Trek hours out of many that doesn't do a lot for me personally for a variety of reasons. Like a few others. But I just don't find INS to be that deep or great either. I think it had potential (even the dullest eps and films always do) but in it's case, I think going down the simple route was what neutered it.
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  #48  
Old 01-29-2011, 11:23 AM
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I think it is totally fair to regard it as a failed movie because of its thematic consistency but I don't see what's wrong with "Picard objects to Prime Directive violation and forced resettlement of a species for military and medical purposes". It's hardly worse or simpler than "Kirk flies to Genesis, kicks some Klingon butt, blows up his ship and saves his buddy", I'd even say it is better and an itzy-bit more complex than the safe my friend theme.

So in my opinion INS has a good theme but totally fails in the execution. I think the same about GEN. To generalize a bit, the TNG movies had smart and Trekish ideas in them whereas the TOS movies had a natural flow and a sense of harmony.
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  #49  
Old 08-14-2011, 07:41 AM
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I'm watching TMP in Director's Cut format for the first time in a while.

It's interesting.

Kirk is actually a bit arrogant in the early phases of the film. He's quite dismissive of the opinions of others around him in the film (he launches the ship despite being told by everyone she's not ready, he snappily dismisses the ensign who offers to tour him round the ship when he arrives, he completely ignores the truth that he knows nothing about the new systems on the ship).............until all this blows up in his face when he puts the ship to Warp and endangers it.

Then he still rounds on Decker for being the 'competing' one when in fact Decker is routinely just trying to point out the ship is now run differently than it was when he last commanded her, and Kirk keeps putting it in danger.

Kirk's command style might be skoosh rusty after two and a half years out of course.

The visuals are great, but the interior lighting is very cold and sterile in places, and distancing. The basic look is really nice and well done, but the lighting is all wrong in terms of the coolness it radiates actually pushing me away from it.

I shall keep watching.................
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  #50  
Old 08-14-2011, 08:26 AM
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I think you have to credit Robert Wise a little (or a lot) directorially.

There's just not a feature film length script and story in the film, so he has to then stretch out the main beats of the film and pad it out along the way with endless (beautifully done of course) effects shots and passes of the ship in space. This probably isn't surprising since the basic story is taken from 'Changeling' which they were able to wrap up in around 55 minutes over a decade earlier.

As a result there's no real momentum to anything. The film is essentially treading water until it finally starts to move when the probe turns up on Earth (incidentally, I still think with the new effects that it was a bad idea to show the ship inside the cloud because it is underwhelming when it gets revealed).

Overall, it's still of a case of a film that looks great..................but has no especially strong story working with it's visuals.
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Last edited by kevin : 08-14-2011 at 08:42 AM.
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