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  #11  
Old 01-08-2011, 03:37 AM
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Saquist Saquist is offline
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Actually that was Vedek Win and keiko at the end of season one.
That was not an episode that I liked. It was a very FORCED plot that was attempting to mirror reality with the Dovor Trials.

But this was a Bajoran Station, In Bajoran Space, under Bajoran jurisidiction...Winn had every right as spiritual leader to ask for certain concessions from Keiko and she was obstinately opposed attempting to force Federation values upon bajoran children yet according to the Prime Directive they're not to interfere with their development and internal affairs. It wasn't for Keiko to dictate terms to the Bajorans. Just as star fleet officers are required to submit to the laws of the planets they visit so too with Keiko's school.

Bajoran and Federation values aren't the same and she really had no right to dictate terms. But it was her school. But I wouldn't have thought it a shame to have the school shut down but thankfully it didn't come to that. LIke most Trek episodes alls-well-it-ends-well.

My point is...the separation of Church and state work well for the United States.
But success tends to make one arrogant. Many people believe it's the only way. But it's really not our place to decided what other sovereignties do within their own borders Quark wasn't far off when he said the Federation is more insidious than the Borg but that's an American ideal aswell.

There maybe many different ways to advance as a civilization, The Bajorans had space flight while man was in the Bronze Age. Let them do it like they wish.
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  #12  
Old 01-08-2011, 03:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Saquist View Post
Actually that was Vedek Win and keiko at the end of season one.
Ah, that's right - it was later in the same ep that Kira and Keiko clashed as well.

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That was not an episode that I liked. It was a very FORCED plot that was attempting to mirror reality with the Dovor Trials.
And all the more remarkable as well for it - did not the Dover Intelligent Design legal case primarily take place well over a decade after the first season of DS9 had been written and produced?

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But success tends to make one arrogant. Many people believe it's the only way. But it's really not our place to decided what other sovereignties do within their own borders Quark wasn't far off when he said the Federation is more insidious than the Borg but that's an American ideal as well.
I do like Quark's words on the Federation.
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Last edited by kevin : 01-08-2011 at 03:53 AM.
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  #13  
Old 01-08-2011, 12:45 PM
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Actually that was Vedek Win and keiko at the end of season one.
That was not an episode that I liked. It was a very FORCED plot that was attempting to mirror reality with the Dovor Trials.

But this was a Bajoran Station, In Bajoran Space, under Bajoran jurisidiction...Winn had every right as spiritual leader to ask for certain concessions from Keiko and she was obstinately opposed attempting to force Federation values upon bajoran children yet according to the Prime Directive they're not to interfere with their development and internal affairs. It wasn't for Keiko to dictate terms to the Bajorans. Just as star fleet officers are required to submit to the laws of the planets they visit so too with Keiko's school.

Bajoran and Federation values aren't the same and she really had no right to dictate terms. But it was her school. But I wouldn't have thought it a shame to have the school shut down but thankfully it didn't come to that. LIke most Trek episodes alls-well-it-ends-well.

My point is...the separation of Church and state work well for the United States.
But success tends to make one arrogant. Many people believe it's the only way. But it's really not our place to decided what other sovereignties do within their own borders Quark wasn't far off when he said the Federation is more insidious than the Borg but that's an American ideal aswell.

There maybe many different ways to advance as a civilization, The Bajorans had space flight while man was in the Bronze Age. Let them do it like they wish.
I am surprised that you side with Winn who bombed the school and tried to kill Bareil.
And even if we ignore Winn and her lust for power (the end of DS9 should make it crystal clear that she didn't believe in the Prophets), the Federation didn't force any values upon the kids in the school, Keiko just did ordinary classes.
There weren't just Bajoran children in Keiko's school so if the Bajorans wanted religious tuition they could have done it it as an extra in the school for the Bajoran kids.

I was educated in such a school system (while religion is more relevant in the US than in Europe at least in Germany religion and state are less formally seperated than in the US) and while I did not really enjoy my Catholic propaganda classes there was at least the alternative to go into Ethics class for non-Catholic and non-Protestant folks and above all there was no anti-science nonsense like in religious schools.
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  #14  
Old 01-10-2011, 08:59 AM
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Yep but he fails. A few references to the Christian God and the misrepresentation of the sanctity of life or IDIC as something particularly Christian or Catholic isn't a convincing proof.
His error is that he mistakes his believes for those of Trek. I think that he feels himself and his believes mirrored or represented in Trek is closer to the truth and that's the real beauty of Trek.
I agree.

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Take this nicely written passage, substitute 'Christian morality and values' with 'liberalism and enlightment' and it'd be a bit more accurate. One should of course be aware of the limitations of labels and categorizations.

In a time when much of television fare is unreflective of Christian morality and values, it’s encouraging and affirming to have shows that successfully present a kinder and gentler world. A world in which people of different values, backgrounds and perceptions can cooperate. Each offering their uniqueness as a gift to the others. A world in which enemies are ultimately forgiven and learn to cooperate. Infinite diversity in infinite combination, as per the Vulcan mantra.
Don't take this the wrong way because I value your input. Isn't what you're doing above similar to what some religious people do but in reverse? I know you are trying to look at the positive in this case which is admirable but substituting what was written to make it sound better doesn't change what was written. Some Christians try to ignore parts of the Bible that are clearly negative or try to justify them with all sorts of explanations but again it doesn't change what was written. In this article Angelo Stagnaro is clearly saying he thinks Star Trek promotes one religion over others which I personally found slightly offensive.

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Now if Catholics or Christians in general would focus more upon Jesus' idea of a community of all people, not just friends but also foes, not just family or the people of Israel but all people, if they would promote this key idea more than focus upon anti-abortion stuff or their God worship (Jesus indirectly says that love of God, self and the other is identical, i.e. God is not a white-bearded lord in the skies but a notion for the community) I'd take the argument that Trek is Christian more seriously. But like this? Nahh.
Again I agree but somehow it seems things always tend to get twisted when it comes to religion.

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I tend to agree with Horatio that the writer of the first article is interpreting certain things within episodes which gel with their own personal beliefs and philosophy and deciding to write from there.

Hey..........we all do that though!
I agree we all do but I try my best to draw the line on forcing my values on to others. For example I personally feel for me abortion is not an option. I feel there are too many other options to prevent pregnancy in the first place so I should use those precautions first and not get to the point of having to make the decision to or not to have an abortion. I guess it also helps that I don't have anyone preaching to me that contraception is evil but either way that doesn't mean I'm going to stand in someone else's way if they feel the option of abortion is right for them. I also see the benefit of making abortion legal. I much rather have licensed medical doctors doing this work in a satirized environment minimizing the risks then having unlicensed butchers doing this procedure in back alleys for extra drug money.

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Originally Posted by Saquist View Post
this was a Bajoran Station, In Bajoran Space, under Bajoran jurisidiction...Winn had every right as spiritual leader to ask for certain concessions from Keiko and she was obstinately opposed attempting to force Federation values upon bajoran children yet according to the Prime Directive they're not to interfere with their development and internal affairs. It wasn't for Keiko to dictate terms to the Bajorans. Just as star fleet officers are required to submit to the laws of the planets they visit so too with Keiko's school. Bajoran and Federation values aren't the same and she really had no right to dictate terms. But it was her school. But I wouldn't have thought it a shame to have the school shut down but thankfully it didn't come to that. LIke most Trek episodes alls-well-it-ends-well.
I had to watch this episode again because it had been a long time since I saw it. I don't believe the Prime Directive applies in this case. First the Bajorans are not a pre-warp civilization. Second the Bajorans asked the Federation for assistance and gave them jurisdiction over DS9. Also when Vedek Winn interrupted Keiko's class Keiko was teaching the children the science behind the wormhole vs. the Bajoran religious explanation for its existence which is what Vedek Winn disapproved of. As horatio mentioned later in the episode we find out this was all a plot by Vedek Winn to get Vedek Bareil to DS9 and have him assassinated. Keiko was not imposing her own values or beliefs on the children, she was teaching them facts.

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Originally Posted by Saquist View Post
My point is...the separation of Church and state work well for the United States.
But success tends to make one arrogant. Many people believe it's the only way. But it's really not our place to decided what other sovereignties do within their own borders. There maybe many different ways to advance as a civilization, The Bajorans had space flight while man was in the Bronze Age. Let them do it like they wish.
Well for the Bajorans the integration of church and state seems to work because it appears the Bajorans all believe in the same faith. There are different denominations orthodox etc. but I can't recall any mention of another faith on Bajor which I'm sure was done to simplify things for the writers. In a multi-faith society I believe the separation of church and state is the best option otherwise how do you decide which faiths rules society will live by?

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Originally Posted by Saquist View Post
Quark wasn't far off when he said the Federation is more insidious than the Borg but that's an American ideal aswell.
When did Quark say that? I believe it was Michael Eddington in "For the Cause" that said "You know in some ways you're even worse than the Borg. At least they tell you about their plans for assimilation. You're more insidious. You assimilate people and they don't even know it." I don't agree with him because the Federation doesn't force any sovereign worlds to join them they have a choice unlike the Borg. I thought there was some great dialog in "In the Hand of the Prophets." My favorite Quark dialog from this episode is:

Quark: You were looking for me? Don't tell me; there's a Bajoran convention on the station I didn't know about? Thanks Odo! I need to call in more Dabo girls.
Odo: It's not a convention. They're from an orthodox spiritual order coming to support Vedek Winn's efforts to keep the Bajoran children out of school.
Odo: Orthodox? In that case, I'll need twice as many Dabo girls. These spiritual types love those Dabo girls.

I also liked this conversation between Bereil and Sisko:

Vedek Bareil: Today I am only a vedek. If the Prophets will it, someday I may be Kai. And I can be a better friend to you then.
Commander Sisko: In other words, being my friend now might hurt your chances?
Vedek Bareil: The Prophets teach us patience.
Commander Sisko: It appears they also teach you politics.


My favorite diolog from this episode though is Sisko's speak that goes:

"The Bajorans who have lived with us on this station, who have worked with us for months, who helped us move this station to protect the wormhole, who joined us to explore the Gamma Quadrant, who have begun to build the future of Bajor with us. These people know that we are neither the enemy nor the devil. We don't always agree. We have some damn good fights, in fact. But we always come away from them with a little better understanding and appreciation of the other. You won't succeed here. The school will reopen. And when your rhetoric gets old, the Bajoran parents will bring their children back."
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Old 01-10-2011, 09:01 AM
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I was educated in such a school system (while religion is more relevant in the US than in Europe at least in Germany religion and state are less formally seperated than in the US) and while I did not really enjoy my Catholic propaganda classes there was at least the alternative to go into Ethics class for non-Catholic and non-Protestant folks and above all there was no anti-science nonsense like in religious schools.
horatio where you are, are the Catholic schools publicly funded? In Ontario the Catholic schools are but other religious schools are private. We had a case here that another religious school group claimed it was unfair that the Catholic school system gets public funding and they didn't. I agree with them either you fund all religious schools or you fund none of them. Ultimately the government would not fund them because then they also realized they would have to fund every other religious school. However they did change the law that you can get a tax rebate if you send your child to a private school. What bothers me about Catholic schools that receive public funding and reading stories like this.
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Old 01-10-2011, 09:27 AM
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When did Quark say that? I believe it was Michael Eddington in "For the Cause" that said "You know in some ways you're even worse than the Borg. At least they tell you about their plans for assimilation. You're more insidious. You assimilate people and they don't even know it." I don't agree with him because the Federation doesn't force any sovereign worlds to join them they have a choice unlike the Borg. I thought there was some great dialog in "In the Hand of the Prophets." My favorite Quark dialog from this episode is:
No, Saq is right - perhaps the word insidious isn't used, I can't now recall but at some point in the Dominion War story Quark and Odo have a conversation in the bar - ostensibly about a beverage - except it's humans and the Federation he's really talking about.

The only problem being, I cannot recall what episode it was.
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Old 01-10-2011, 09:53 AM
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No, Saq is right - perhaps the word insidious isn't used, I can't now recall but at some point in the Dominion War story Quark and Odo have a conversation in the bar - ostensibly about a beverage - except it's humans and the Federation he's really talking about.

The only problem being, I cannot recall what episode it was.
Ok, I just did a Google search. Is this what you are referring to from "The Way of the Warrior.":

"During the preparation for the First Battle of Deep Space 9, in 2372, Quark expressed to Garak the direness being stuck on the station, stating that "the worst part is, my only hope for salvation is the Federation." Quark went on to introduce Garak to the Earth concoction of root beer, which Quark went on to describe as being "bubbly and cloying and happy. Just like the Federation," adding, "but you know what's really frightening? If you drink enough of it, you start to like it." Garak, who disliked the taste of the "vile" beverage, added too, that it was "insidious", to which Quark added, "Just like the Federation." Garak finally takes a moment to embrace the Federation, inquiring to Quark in he thought they would "be able to save us?" The defeated Quark responded, "I hope so."
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Old 01-10-2011, 10:00 PM
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Concerning the article, I agree with you that the author is a bit condescending towards other religions. But, without intending to defend him, he also recognizes the kind side of Trek or Christianity (I guess we could also simply call it common decency). So I'd say he is a Dark Jedi, caught between the Light and the Dark side.

Concerning abortion, I entirely agree with you. If the religious folks who are against abortion wouldn't be against contraceptives like the Pope or against sex education like the American Evangelicals I would take them more seriously.
Then again there are may moderate and liberal Christians who rightly emphasize the sanctity of life and that women who consider to abort need psychological council.
Basically the question of abortion boils down to a trade-off between the rights of the woman and of the embryo / fetus. I don't feel qualified to define when life starts and as a man I lack the phenomological insights of pregnancy (and the ensuing question of whether you could really claim that a woman and her fetus are seperate entities) and that's why I am perfectly happy with allowing abortion under certain conditions (it should be early enough, there should be a social, medical or criminal reason for it). I certainly don't think that anybody has the right to tell a woman who has been raped or who might give birth to a seriously handicapped child that she must not kill her soon-to-be baby.
The great George Carlin also has some nice insights into abortion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvF1Q3UidWM

About religious schools, I don't think that we have any over here, probably because religious tuition is integrated into the normal school system. I think that any private school needs to receive public funds so one might have to ask more principal questions. Should there be religious schools (your article shows the Dark Side and Dawkins has also dug up some ugly sh*t in British religious schools) or, that's the lefty in me, should there be private schools at all? In my opinion the school system should have an integrating and not a seperating function.

About Quark, I think he talked several times about the problems of the Federation. I faintly him talking about the UFP to Sisko when they were on a planet during the Dominion War.
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Old 01-11-2011, 03:07 AM
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I am surprised that you side with Winn who bombed the school and tried to kill Bareil.
I don't condone her actions.



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And even if we ignore Winn and her lust for power (the end of DS9 should make it crystal clear that she didn't believe in the Prophets), the Federation didn't force any values upon the kids in the school, Keiko just did ordinary classes.
At the end She tried to stop Dukat.
Remember the ENDING and how she died. She came around.


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There weren't just Bajoran children in Keiko's school so if the Bajorans wanted religious tuition they could have done it it as an extra in the school for the Bajoran kids.
It's their government, their territory they shouldn't have to make concessions in their own sovereignty. It's that simple. If Keiko could follow or make concessions for the dominant beliefs then you shouldn't be teaching under their sphere of influence. The same would go for a Bajoran teacher teaching in Federation territory. Keep the religion out and teach the facts. It's fair and objective with out putting your own values over someone else. If the other parents didn't like Bajorans values they can remove them from the school.

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I had to watch this episode again because it had been a long time since I saw it. I don't believe the Prime Directive applies in this case. First the Bajorans are not a pre-warp civilization.
Reminder: The Klingons were not a prewarp civilization yet Picard quoth the Prime Directive here. Sisko also says at the beginning of DS9 that the PD applies as well.
Quote:
Second the Bajorans asked the Federation for assistance and gave them jurisdiction over DS9.
That's never said and several times Sisko is given orders from the Provisional Governemnt such as when his First Officer was replaced with out his consent, or when certain former terrorist were given amnesty. So the Federation is in command of the station by the station was repeatedly called a Bajoran station which is why technically Kira had to OFFICIALLY protest the Federations refusal to turn the station over Provisional Governement during Call to Arms.

Quote:
Also when Vedek Winn interrupted Keiko's class Keiko was teaching the children the science behind the wormhole vs. the Bajoran religious explanation for its existence which is what Vedek Winn disapproved of. As horatio mentioned later in the episode we find out this was all a plot by Vedek Winn to get Vedek Bareil to DS9 and have him assassinated. Keiko was not imposing her own values or beliefs on the children, she was teaching them facts.
The difference is perspective. It's respect for what is divine. Calling them aliens instead of prophets. These are their gods, it may seem extreme but the perspective is a valid concern for reverence.

Sure it is a wormhole and their is nothing wrong with calling it that because it describes a phenomena. But what does the Federation know about whether the Prophets are ALIEN to bajor or not? The Prophets say they are of Bajor. The Federation propaganda is for the purpose of dismissing the prophets not for being factual.


Quote:
Well for the Bajorans the integration of church and state seems to work because it appears the Bajorans all believe in the same faith. There are different denominations orthodox etc. but I can't recall any mention of another faith on Bajor which I'm sure was done to simplify things for the writers. In a multi-faith society I believe the separation of church and state is the best option otherwise how do you decide which faiths rules society will live by?
That's a belief...and beliefs are different from one person to the next. I cannot and will not dictate my beliefs of what is the best option to a sovereignty. I have no right to challenge them and their culture and their rules. I may have a personal preference but that's a bias.

I think the separation is a good idea because the church gets carried away but the separation is partially illusionary as the representatives are allowed to make legislation that follows their own values instead of the people the represent which is why people vote in people of like beliefs. So religion still makes it in. That the idea behind the conservative label.


Quote:
When did Quark say that? I believe it was Michael Eddington in "For the Cause" that said "You know in some ways you're even worse than the Borg. At least they tell you about their plans for assimilation. You're more insidious. You assimilate people and they don't even know it." I don't agree with him because the Federation doesn't force any sovereign worlds to join them they have a choice unlike the Borg. I thought there was some great dialog in "In the Hand of the Prophets." My favorite Quark dialog from this episode is:
you're correct it was Eddington.
I understand his perspective if extreme.
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  #20  
Old 01-11-2011, 04:40 AM
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The difference is perspective. It's respect for what is divine. Calling them aliens instead of prophets. These are their gods, it may seem extreme but the perspective is a valid concern for reverence.

Sure it is a wormhole and their is nothing wrong with calling it that because it describes a phenomena. But what does the Federation know about whether the Prophets are ALIEN to bajor or not? The Prophets say they are of Bajor. The Federation propaganda is for the purpose of dismissing the prophets not for being factual.
I think that this particular episode is mainly about how Winn exploits religion for politics. But in general I agree with you, the Prophets are wormhole aliens as well as Bajoran Gods. Especially in later seasons when Sisko accepted his role as Emissary more and more DS9 also adopted this perspective.


About the Prophets saying that they are from Bajor, I have the crazy idea that they are future Bajorans or rather, as they are timeless, the final stage of Bajoran evolution. It is basically a small scale version of Omega Point theory, i.e. the idea that we all might evolve one day into God(s) and become the structuring force of the universe. The inherent causality paradox is not unlike what happens e.g. in First Contact, future humans care for humans in the present and give Cochrane and Lily a prophecy of a better future.

What I like about such admittedly slightly lunatic ideas is that they broaden the concept of God and combine it with the old sci-fi gimmick of causality paradoxes ... or is it really a sci-fi invention? When Christians talk about Christ's death being a remedy for sin don't they mean something similar? The idea is after all not that he has "erased our debt" in order that we can mess up again but rather that he has opened the space of possibility for redemption. Just like Picard opens the space of possibility for a meaningful life for Cochrane.
I think that in Calvinism you have a similar paradox, there is predestination but it's not the the old Pagan destiny thing because you are also free. Freedom (not the strawberry- vs. apple-pie consumer freedom) is always paradoxical, e.g. you cannot be forced to love as love is probably the freest act that exists but you nonetheless fall in love, you can't help it, it feels like you are destined to love this particular person.
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