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  #31  
Old 12-08-2010, 10:19 AM
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I checked the German targets and, guess what, all the companies are in the yellow pages. So let's ban the friggin' yellow pages, they might be useful to a terrorist who wants to find the next factory which produces weapons or chemicals.
That's a fair simplification of it.

It misses the point, but it's a fair simplification. The point would be that a terrorist looking in the Yellow Pages might not be able to previously determine which of those companies was considered to be a vital part of infrastructure just by looking in the phone book.

Now, thanks to Wiki they know exactly which one to hit. Lucky employees of that company!!

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Anyway, all this rage against Wikileaks is just meant to deflect from the nasty sh*t they uncovered. A good government needs well-informed people to function well.
It does, but I for one also believe that a Government has the right to - and sometimes needs to - keep things either hidden or private from other governments and sometimes even the population because of the type of information involved.

Just as you or I have our secrets from other people, Governments also need to have theirs.

However, at the end of the day it doesn't matter that I think that. The releases will continue and we shall just have to see what transpires out of the information released. It's all rather out of the hands of people like us at the moment.
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Last edited by kevin : 12-08-2010 at 10:23 AM.
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  #32  
Old 12-08-2010, 10:20 AM
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I checked the German targets and, guess what, all the companies are in the yellow pages. So let's ban the friggin' yellow pages, they might be useful to a terrorist who wants to find the next factory which produces weapons or chemicals. I know sh*t about chemicals but I as well as any other German citizen could name you the location of the biggest chemical factory. If an Islamist wanted to attack it he wouldn't need Wikileaks.

Anyway, I am the first one to admit that these folks make mistake. But the focus upon these few mistakes and the rage against Wikileaks is just meant to deflect from the nasty sh*t they uncovered. A good government needs well-informed people to function well.
It wasn't a mistake, it was a well thought out attack. They are giving serious though to what they are releasing and when. Who knows what's coming next
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  #33  
Old 12-08-2010, 10:27 AM
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An attack upon what? I can point the finger upon people who do have blood on their hands and who are not prosecuted. With Wikileaks it is the other way around.

The next release will be about a big bank. I am looking forward to some evidence about the collusion between banks and rating agencies, a publically neglected cause of the financial crisis.
Then again I doubt that rightwing ideology would acknowledge the need for regulation or socialisation of rating agencies, even if they are engaged in criminal activity. Let's rather hunt down the evil hackers who brought the news.
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  #34  
Old 12-08-2010, 10:33 AM
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Just as you or I have our secrets from other people, Governments also need to have theirs.
Of course they need it but governmental secrety is not comparable to conventional privacy. That's why the comparison between Google's Street View thingy and Wikileaks, often made by opponents of the latter, is wrong.

I am the first guy to talk about raison d'État, the need for powerful intelligence services and a big gun to deter bada**es and I think that Wikileaks would have to be immediately taken down with all necessary force if they had revealed real secrets.
But so far they have only revealed low-level secrets which were accessible to an ordinary soldiers. Most of the stuff in the last release is just gossip, diplomats giving their opinion about public officials of other countries.
So what should worry us as citizens is that our governments put the veil of secrecy over matters which shouldn't be kept secret.

Last edited by horatio : 12-08-2010 at 10:38 AM.
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  #35  
Old 12-08-2010, 10:39 AM
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An attack upon what? I can point the finger upon people who do have blood on their hands and who are not prosecuted. With Wikileaks it is the other way around.

The next release will be about a big bank. I am looking forward to some evidence about the collusion between banks and rating agencies, a publically neglected cause of the financial crisis.
Then again I doubt that rightwing ideology would acknowledge the need for regulation or socialisation of rating agencies, even if they are engaged in criminal activity. Let's rather hunt down the evil hackers who brought the news.
You pointed out yourself that the latest wave of releases was retaliation. I view the release of the infrastructure target list as an attack. And they've made it very well known that they have more damaging information on deck.
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  #36  
Old 12-08-2010, 10:40 AM
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Of course they need it but governmental secrety is not comparable to conventional privacy. That's why the comparison between Google's Street View thingy and Wikileaks, often made by opponents of the latter, is wrong.

I am the first guy to talk about the raison d'État and I think that Wikileaks would have to be immediately taken down with all necessary force if they had revealed real secrets.

But so far they have only revealed low-level secrets which were accessible to an ordinary soldiers. Most of the stuff in the last release is just gossip, diplomats giving their opinion about public officials of other countries. So what should worry us as citizens is that out governments put the veil of secrecy over matters which shouldn't be kept secret.
Well, that's part of the difference. Not everyone believes that they are all 'low-level' and not everyone will agree that it should all be known to the public.

That's just inescapable reality.

While I myself consider diplomatic tittle-tattle to be of little long-term consequence (if only because all the other countries involved will have their own opinion of the US people involved as well and I would highly doubt it was all of the highest regard) I'm afraid I think the infrastructure information is considerably more serious and a little bit up the scale from 'low-level' in terms of it's potential consequences. Other people would view it all very differently, of course.
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  #37  
Old 12-08-2010, 10:41 AM
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Well, that's part of the difference. Not everyone believes that they are all 'low-level' and not everyone will agree that it should all be known to the public.

That's just inescapable reality.

While I myself consider diplomatic tittle-tattle to be of little long-term consequence (if only because all the other countries involved will have their own opinion of the US people involved as well and I would highly doubt it was all of the highest regard) I'm afraid I think the infrastructure information is considerably more serious and a little bit up the scale from 'low-level' in terms of it's potential consequences. Other people would view it all very differently, of course.
That's how I see it too. The diplomatic stuff was just an annoyance. The infrastructure list is an escalation and an attempt to show the world that they are willing to play hardball.
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  #38  
Old 12-08-2010, 10:46 AM
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You pointed out yourself that the latest wave of releases was retaliation. I view the release of the infrastructure target list as an attack. And they've made it very well known that they have more damaging information on deck.
You can read it like that, sure, but then I have to ask again the obvious question:
An organization did something which might lead to a loss of human lives, i.e. they might have blood on their hands in the future as opposed to people and organizations who actually do have blood on their hands (Halliburton, Blackwater, the murderers from the Collateral Murder video). Yet the former is persecuted and the latter (namely Blackwater now under a new name) still gets contracts by the US government for the training of Iraqi security forces. Why is that so?

And no, I won't hear anymore nonsense about how evil these hackers are until this very question is answered because that's the core of the issue, avoiding the content of admittingly questionably obtained, edited and released information and focusing just on the bringer of the bad news.
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  #39  
Old 12-08-2010, 10:48 AM
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You can read it like that, sure, but then I have to ask again the obvious question:
An organization did something which might lead to a loss of human lives, i.e. they might have blood on their hands in the future as opposed to people and organizations who actually do have blood on their hands (Halliburton, Blackwater, the murderers from the Collateral Murder video). Yet the former is persecuted and the latter (namely Blackwater now under a new name) still get contracts by the US government for the training of Iraqi security forces. Why is that so?
I'm no fan of some of these security contractors. It's not an either/or proposition.
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  #40  
Old 12-08-2010, 10:52 AM
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You can read it like that, sure, but then I have to ask again the obvious question:
An organization did something which might lead to a loss of human lives, i.e. they might have blood on their hands in the future as opposed to people and organizations who actually do have blood on their hands (Halliburton, Blackwater, the murderers from the Collateral Murder video). Yet the former is persecuted and the latter (namely Blackwater now under a new name) still gets contracts by the US government for the training of Iraqi security forces. Why is that so?
That is a good question - and I doubt anyone here has the answer.

However, it does not alleviate or give Wikileaks a free pass to start putting out a flood of information unrelated to that question that has it's own set of potential headaches and security issues. They take no responsibility for their actions and what might happen afterwards, and if they want to do that - fine. But they should not be so staggeringly stupid as to think everyone will fawn over them as 'heroes' for doing it.
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