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  #121  
Old 12-09-2010, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Livingston View Post
I was wondering if discussions such as this fall along the same sort of conservative/liberal lines that we see here in the States. Yes, politics is a sure-fire way to get people worked up anywhere in the world.
In the debate of many issues you can often draw the conventional right-left line. Yet it becomes interesting when these lines vanish.
The Israel debate between me and BB is for example a fight among lefties. He is the modern lefty who doesn't like violence and I am the old lefty who has no problem with violence as long as the right people die.
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  #122  
Old 12-09-2010, 12:36 PM
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Interestingly put. You have a way with words, Horatio.
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  #124  
Old 12-09-2010, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by horatio View Post
The Israel debate between me and BB is for example a fight among lefties. He is the modern lefty who doesn't like violence and I am the old lefty who has no problem with violence as long as the right people die.
Nope, I do like violence that kills the right people. The problem is that violence usually kills 100 people and 99.5 of them are the wrong people while 0.5 are the right people.... may be, probably, sometimes.

I just prefer solving issues the civilized way: Two men enter, one man leaves!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fwjci...eature=related
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  #125  
Old 12-09-2010, 12:54 PM
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That's why broad bombardment of the Gaza strip was wrong, it hit ordinary people, and that's why I advocate that not the Israeli army but the Mossad becomes active and targets top-level Hamas officials. Ordinary intelligence service operations at no costs to civilians or low-level Hamas folks who are in not for ideological but for opportunistic reasons.
Just like when they took Yassin out, a bit more precise perhaps.

The Hydra might grow new heads but you don't let the beast roam freely because of that.
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  #126  
Old 12-09-2010, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by horatio View Post
I am the old lefty who has no problem with violence as long as the right people die.
Of course, who decides who are the right people to die?

As noted previously - one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist and as such who would be the 'right' one to kill is absolutely a place where the line blurs.

That said, I personally couldn't care less about the existence of Israel or Palestine because they are both about as bad as each other over the long run and let's not pretend either of them really want to live in peace with each other politically. They don't, and they never will.

It's just a question of which group gets eliminated first.
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  #127  
Old 12-09-2010, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by horatio View Post
That's why broad bombardment of the Gaza strip was wrong, it hit ordinary people, and that's why I advocate that not the Israeli army but the Mossad becomes active and targets top-level Hamas officials. Ordinary intelligence service operations at no costs to civilians or low-level Hamas folks who are in not for ideological but for opportunistic reasons.
Just like when they took Yassin out, a bit more preciser perhaps.

The Hydra might grow new heads but you don't let the beast roam freely because of that.
I know and I get it. The problem is that some dudes in uniform working at a desk decide who is going to die based on 'intelligence information' and the whole process is top secret so that no one outside of the whole process knows whats going on inside of the process and thus the responsible burocrats are totally unaccountable. And if people are unaccountable they have the odd tendency to suddenly make all sorts of weird 'mistakes'.

Furthermore, if the process is not transparent, then everyone can make up all sorts of stories about it. Rumors make great propaganda. And that is why the hydra grows new heads. The people do not accept secrecy. It violates a basic principle of human society and morals: Equality in front of the law.

There is no justice in secrecy. Secrecy just doesnt work, it never has.
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  #128  
Old 12-09-2010, 01:00 PM
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We do pretty well for ourselves here on this board though. We have a lot of different viewpoints and differing opinions, but we are all able to discuss them in a civil manner. The world could learn something from our little board.
Nah, sometimes put us all in a room and it would be a different ballgame!
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  #129  
Old 12-09-2010, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Botany Bay View Post
I know and I get it. The problem is that some dudes in uniform working at a desk decide who is going to die based on 'intelligence information' and the whole process is top secret so that no one outside of the whole process knows whats going on inside of the process and thus the responsible burocrats are totally unaccountable. And if people are unaccountable they have the odd tendency to suddenly make all sorts of weird 'mistakes'.

Furthermore, if the process is not transparent, then everyone can make up all sorts of stories about it. Rumors make great propaganda. And that is why the hydra grows new heads. The people do not accept secrecy. It violates a basic principle of human society and morals: Equality in front of the law.

Secrecy just doesnt work, it never has.
OK so what should the Israelis do? Just calmly sit around while some antisemite scum which unlike Fatah isn't interested in peace shoots rockets upon their territory?
Masochism is not an option.
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  #130  
Old 12-09-2010, 01:04 PM
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OK so what should the Israelis do? Just calmly sit around while some antisemite scum which unlike Fatah isn't interested in peace shoots rockets upon their territory?
Masochism is not an option.
Accept a Palestinian State in the borders of 1967. Then lets see what happens.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrNezs415LI
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