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  #101  
Old 12-08-2010, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Botany Bay View Post
Exactly. Now imagine Iran or Russia would spy on confident negotiations between Republicans and Democrats and collect DNA samples american politicians. This is unacceptable.
Imagine? How do you or I know they already don't?
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  #102  
Old 12-08-2010, 01:51 PM
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I absolutely disagree with some aspects of what they have published and I think if they had given serious thought to it, they should have done some blacking out of their own.
Sure, they should have. But US authorities who refused to assist them in blacking out can't play their hypocritical "they endanger American lives" game.
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  #103  
Old 12-08-2010, 01:52 PM
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What exactly makes them journalists? If I create a blog and steal German national secrets, am I a journalist?
Wikileaks didnt steal the documents. It received them, there is a minor but important distinction here. If we ignore the distinction, then all investigative journalism must be considered illegal.

And yes, if you created such a blog and published german national secrets, you would be a journalist doing investigative work (and I would applaud you for doing it). Freedom of the Press is a consequence of the Freedom of Speech. To be a journalist no qualification is necessary. If a government requires a qualification for doing journalistic work it effectively restricts the Freedom of Speech.

A 'journalist pass' for instance is not a document which makes one an approved journalist, but is actually nothing more then an invitation card or a backstage pass, given by the institution which hosts a press conference or such things.

Dictatorships however often do require a qualification for being a journalist. Handing out the approvals is the best way to restrict the Freedom of Speech and to criminalize critique by 'unauthorized' amateurs. The GDR, in which I grew up, worked that way. The most famous incident here in germany is the so called 'attack on the Umweltbibliothek': Political Opposition Activists where prosecuted for espionage against the state and for being a risk to national security, because they published papers critical to the socialist party while being not authorised as publishers.

All it needs to be a journalist is to be a human being with a pencil.

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Sure, they should have. But US authorities who refused to assist them in blacking out can't play their hypocritical "they endanger American lives" game.
Exactly. Therefore the concerns for National Security must be considered a pretense. The consequences of this are quite nasty: We must consider the actions against Wikileaks a US 'global attack' on the Freedom of the Press.

Last edited by Botany Bay : 12-08-2010 at 02:02 PM.
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  #104  
Old 12-08-2010, 01:53 PM
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Sure, they should have. But US authorities who refused to assist them in blacking out can't play their hypocritical "they endanger American lives" game.
Sure, but neither can Wiki claim it's all harmless what they're revealing.
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  #105  
Old 12-08-2010, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Botany Bay View Post
Wikileaks didnt steal the documents. It received them, there is a minor but important distinction here. If we ignore the distinction, then all investigative journalism must be considered illegal.

And yes, if you created such a blog and published german national secrets, you would be a journalist doing investigative work. Freedom of the Press is a consequence of the Freedom of Speech. To be a journalist no qualification is necessary. If a government requires a qualification it effectively restricts the Freedom of Speech.

A 'journalist pass' for instance is not a document which makes one an approved journalist, but is actually nothing more then an invitation card or a backstage pass, given by the institution which hosts a press conference or such things.

Dictatorships however often do require a qualification for being a journalist. Handing out the approvals is the best way to restrict the Freedom of Speech and to criminalize critique by 'unauthorized' amateurs.

All it needs to be a journalist is to be a human being with a pencil.



Exactly. Therefore the concerns for National Security must be considered a pretense. The consequences of this are quite nasty: The US is currently performing an attack on the Freddom of the Press.
Well, there are folks which I wouldn't call journalists. As much as I like The Daily Show, Stewart isn't a journalist. And about the Glenn Beck and Bill "Shut Up" O'Reilly, well, the less said the better. Don't tell me you wouldn't like to see these two along with their master Murdoch in a reeducation or labour camp, BB.

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Sure, but neither can Wiki claim it's all harmless what they're revealing.
I am not an abstract leftie, if you wanna make an omelett you gotta break some eggs. Power is dirty. It's all about figuring out the lesser evil and to me Wikileaks' mistakes are peanuts compared to the evil they revealed.

Last edited by horatio : 12-08-2010 at 02:01 PM.
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  #106  
Old 12-08-2010, 02:03 PM
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Exactly. Therefore the concerns for National Security must be considered a pretense. The consequences of this are quite nasty: We must consider the actions against Wikileaks a US 'global attack' on the Freedom of the Press.
Well said with the minor correction that other Western countries besides the US are also engaged in the "war against free speech". Time to get the f**k out of the (un)free world and apply for Icelandic citizenship.
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  #107  
Old 12-08-2010, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by horatio View Post
Well, there are folks which I wouldn't call journalists. As much as I like The Daily Show, Stewart isn't a journalist. And about the Glenn Beck and Bill "Shut Up" O'Reilly, well, the less said the better. Don't tell me you wouldn't like to see these two along with their master Murdoch in a reeducation or labour camp, BB.
They are no journalists, because non of them does journalistic work: They do no research of facts, they only present the results of other peoples work. Stewart is an entertainer who presents satire (falls under free speech and thus under freedom of the press) and O'Reilly an entertainer too (who presents the journalistic work of others). Same goes for Glenn Beck.

Wether I personally like their work or not is another matter of course. I think Beck and O'Reilly present propaganda, Stewart makes satire and Murdoch makes money.

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Well said with the minor correction that other Western countries besides the US are also engaged in the "war against free speech". Time to get the f**k out of the (un)free world and apply for Icelandic citizenship.
Absolutely true. The German 'State Department' for instance supports the stand of the US (like a good slave).
And yes again, long live Iceland.
Those people know how to scare the living sh!t out of a government.

Last edited by Botany Bay : 12-08-2010 at 02:11 PM.
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  #108  
Old 12-08-2010, 02:11 PM
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But wouldn't you be tempted an itzy bit by the idea of an honest left-wing dictatorship where there is a gulag just for Murdoch and his bunch? They'd toil for us in sweatshop-like working conditions instead of people from the third world. Sneakers not "made in China" but "made in the Murdoch gulag."
I find the idea ... fascinating.

Last edited by horatio : 12-08-2010 at 02:15 PM.
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  #109  
Old 12-08-2010, 02:22 PM
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But wouldn't you be tempted an itzy bit by the idea of an honest left-wing dictatorship where there is a gulag just for Murdoch and his bunch? They'd toil for us in sweatshop-like working conditions instead of people from the third world. Sneakers not "made in China" but "made in the Murdoch gulag."
I find the idea ... fascinating.
Actually no, not one bit. Honest left-wing sounds nice, but I have quite a problem with the dictatorship part of the idea.
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