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  #61  
Old 11-26-2010, 01:46 PM
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Futuristic looking is a rather subjective term as we don't all share the same view of what the future looks like or should be like nor do we know what the future will be like. Just look at how some of the old scifi shows and movies depicted nuclear reactors as a bulkhead with lots of little ports and tons of rainbow flashing lights. Look at the real thing and it's practically looks like a giant steel pressure cooker with pipes running from it.
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Last edited by Akula2ssn : 11-26-2010 at 01:49 PM.
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  #62  
Old 11-26-2010, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I-Am-Zim View Post
The 19th century factory used as engineering on the Kelvin? Too realistic. The early 20th century brewery used for budgineering? Waaaaay too realistic. If I'm watching sci-fi, I (now this is just me talkin' here) want it to look futuristic. If I want to see a story about a Bud plant, I'll watch the History channel.
Of course, it depends what kind of sci-fi you're watching.

As I'm sure you're quite aware, a science-fiction story itself doesn't necessarily have to be set in the future in any way.

The rest may.........as always........vary when it comes to 'futuristic'.
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  #63  
Old 11-26-2010, 01:53 PM
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lol, I was just thinking about the engine room in TMP. Can you just imagine what that would have looked like if you just removed the transparent glowing vertical and horizontal intermix chambers and replaced them with opaque steel pipes with computer consoles on it and maybe some coils on it as well. Aesthetics aside, it could easily pass as the same thing just no "oooh shiny" effect.

Don't get me wrong, I love watching the lights in the intermix chambers of all the different warp cores, but I also love not being able to see what's going on inside something and just try to imagine it in my head and imagine the heat, the pressures, the photons, electrons, neutrons, and everything going on in there.
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  #64  
Old 11-26-2010, 02:00 PM
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That's a neat way of looking at it!
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  #65  
Old 11-27-2010, 12:18 AM
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Engineering does indeed not look very futuristic but it serves a purpose as it creates a contrast between the shiny brain and the dirty guts of the ship.
ST09 is indeed quite realistic in terms of immediacy, you feel like you are in the middle of the action. This has the advantage of drawing you immediately into the movie and the disadvantage of lacking critical distance to the characters, e.g. in the revenge scene.

The other form of realism, anti-futurism, doesn't belong into science-fiction. The purpose of science-fiction is to look ahead, not just technically but also socially. Morons like Moore who didn't get Trek's vision are not more realistic in terms of being pragmatic or unideological, on the contrary. They imagine the future to be like the present and unlike the folks who created and furthered Trek and who were quite conscious of Trek's social setting the Moores of this world are not even aware of what they believe in. For they do not know what they do ...

Last edited by horatio : 11-27-2010 at 12:23 AM.
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  #66  
Old 11-27-2010, 03:57 AM
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He (and to be fair, a few folks working on and running DS9) acknowleged that there were issues and questions around the GR vision?

To look ahead - that's one purpose of science-fiction - amongst many - and it would be useful to remember that it is not the sole purpose or ability of using a science-fiction setting to tell a story. To perhaps question and reflect and commentate is another one. Something I don't believe TOS was ever immune to either at times.

Questions and 'what if's' - the most dangerous thing of all indeed to come before a vision.

Sure, by all means, think Moore is a 'moron' - that's so laughably simple a reduction anyway of the totality of his contribution to the mid years of Trek. Especially since you've often spoken quite favourably yourself about First Contact. I'm kinda assuming then until clarified that you're giving Braga all the credit for that whole thing and conveniently forgetting Moore co-wrote that as well as Generations - another film that's thematically one of your personal favourites IIRC. I believe he also wrote a couple of DS9 episodes you (once, unless that's changed) rated well. 'Waltz' being one of them.

Which seems to suggest that you like the Trek work of this so-called 'moron' - although I'd wager so do a lot of the other Trek fans that like his work as well irrespective. Sure calling him a moron also insults them as well, but I'm sure that's of little concern and it is par for the course round here and in fandom in general at the present, (I'm hardly complimentary about all Trek writers myself and neither are others so it surely balances itself over the long run).

Anyway, maybe Moore just sat on the sofa in the writers room and Braga did all the hard work when they were collaborating? When they picked up that Hugo for 'All Good Things' it was really only meant to go to Braga all by himself.
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Last edited by kevin : 11-27-2010 at 04:23 AM.
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  #67  
Old 11-28-2010, 12:36 PM
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Laughable? The only laughable thing is that you didn't get my point.
Moore is a fine writer, I merely critisized his perception of Trek being so technobabbly and so utopian whereas his creation is, well, theobabbly and realistic in terms of being unaware of your own ideological preconceptions.

The difference I am talking about is that between somebody who is aware of the crazy sh*t he believes in and somebody who thinks that he is unideological, realistic, pragmatic and thus unaware of his believes. The firmest ideology of our time is cynicism.

Trek belongs into the first category and all the morons who don't get it better stay out of the game. There is enough cynical, postmodern crap out there, no need to convert Trek into something like that.

Last edited by horatio : 11-28-2010 at 12:39 PM.
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  #68  
Old 11-29-2010, 02:30 AM
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Maybe I did - happens from time to time.

Overall it really depends on what approach an individual responds to. I doubt that a touch of reality (because yes, that's how I would call what you call cynicism - so as usual we differ on a basic level anyway) would derail it so much.

It's funny how I can believe in a better future in Trek entirely just by watching TOS as it was and just having it expressed there by simply being in existence (because it does it so well with so little explicit dialogue about it), and yet when TNG attempted to convert that future from being reinforced visually to being also done via dialogue (Picard's speeches, etc over the years and movies) it actually didn't work as well.

Nowadays, if there's specific dialogue about it - and TNG has a lot of dialogue to choose from in this respect - I want to ask questions instead of just going with it.
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Last edited by kevin : 11-29-2010 at 02:39 AM.
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  #69  
Old 11-29-2010, 03:02 PM
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I agree with that, TNG had its blunt moments. Then again Picard mostly spoke about other stuff and his idealism worked well in 'Picard against the establishment' stories among which there are gems like Drumhead or I, Borg.
So perhaps the TNG cosmos wasn't that different and it was just Picard and his crew who were a bit too perfect? Perhaps he is in this respect the counterpart to Sisko who once did the nasty things that had to be done, so Picard would be the guy who does the heroic things that have to be done?

The trespassing officers from DS9, Sisko and Ross, did what they did in order to fulfill their duty, not in order to enrich themselves. It was an implicit debate about means and there were clear limits, some means would go too far.
So the show wasn't cynical for one moment. Even Garakk, the most potentially cynical character, the master of realpolitik, was portrayed as a man of principle when he couldn't torture Odo. While we watched that scene we knew perfectly well that he has tortured many people but it seems as if humankind, perhaps also so in the case of Quark, has "infected" some aliens who live on DS9.
That's a fairly loose interpretation but I want to emphasize that, as you said, the show asked questions but didn't question the basic principles of Trek. The world ain't perfect but the folks (we regularly see) usually strive to improve it. It's just like in a democracy, you can question, critisize and change everything but the constitution.

Last edited by horatio : 11-29-2010 at 03:06 PM.
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