[kevin]

I would agree. Of course, you said it in 60 lines less than I did...............oh well, I'm not a writer anyway!

[Captain Tom Coughlin]

Those re-writes did not work for me, mostly for the reasons Kevin pointed out earlier.

[TNG_Trekman]

If I had an Eludium Pu-36 Explosive Space Modulator I'd use it on those so called "re-writes."

[Saquist]

Originally Posted by kevin

this whole scene because this is their introduction to each other.

But the major issue with the discussion in scene 2 is that I don't think the KM test itself is actually ill-devised and never was. Because obviously you would have to test whether an individual placed in command of a Starship would mentally collapse or stand in the event of being faced with a situation with no clear or clean escape, or where defeat loomed long enough to comprehend what was happening.

I think the KM is ill devised.
The rewriter brings out an interesting fact that the program allows a certain logical complacency that I've personally have never cared for.
In most of the KM's that I've seen whether it's been in the books, or in the Game Star Fleet Academy the KM is cheating. No matter what you do you die.

That's not fair to prevent the Commander from finding a away out if it's possible. One of the things I've always disliked is that the KM is just a battle simulation. What it really needs to be is a situation simulation.

Just as Picard may have violated the Neutral Zone Treaty in Defector he had a contingency. The KM doesn't allow for that. Now may there are other simulations for that but for me the KM is all they show and it's suspect.

[Futureguy]

Originally Posted by Saquist

I think the KM is ill devised.


That's not fair to prevent the Commander from finding a away out if it's possible. One of the things I've always disliked is that the KM is just a battle simulation. What it really needs to be is a situation simulation.

Though one never knows what they are capable of accomplishing until they have the literal "gun to their head", ie: "I refuse to accept death as a solution, I'm not going to give up."
Spock faced that moment in "Galileo 7". Taking a "desperate" move to prevent not only his death, but the death of the surviving crew.

[starbase63]

The first one is the best.

Either way, I think in the next movie, now that everyone and everything is in place, we will see a more recognizable Kirk, though I have the feeling the nuKirk will still be more of a wiseass than Kirk Prime.

[kevin]

Originally Posted by Saquist

I think the KM is ill devised.
The rewriter brings out an interesting fact that the program allows a certain logical complacency that I've personally have never cared for.
In most of the KM's that I've seen whether it's been in the books, or in the Game Star Fleet Academy the KM is cheating. No matter what you do you die.

It could be accused of piling on the escalation of events to always outwit the test subject, but then they are never going to face the possibility of defeat without being thwarted at every turn.

But overall, I think my larger issue is that the writer is more concerned with doing what TOS frequently did and boosting Kirk at the expense of other characters. And also leads on to the other effects I percieve from the changes.

Now, fair enough that was indeed what TOS normally did, but as Horatio points out and which I quite agree with, it doesn't (for me) add any depth or dimensionality to Kirk at all, despite the writer's assertion it would. Of course, others will feel the opposite. In that sense, I don't believe the writer of these scenes perhaps thought about the possible impact elsewhere.

That's not fair to prevent the Commander from finding a away out if it's possible. One of the things I've always disliked is that the KM is just a battle simulation. What it really needs to be is a situation simulation.

Yes, but in battle one cannot be sure of victory - unless you're a starship captain leading the series in question, of course - so you have to be tested on the possibility of failure and defeat and on how you are going to react to that.

Is it maybe an unfair test? Maybe it is - but then I figure that could be part of the point.

Just as Picard may have violated the Neutral Zone Treaty in Defector he had a contingency. The KM doesn't allow for that. Now maybe there are other simulations for that but for me the KM is all they show and it's suspect.

There probably are different simulations that exist - for example in 'Coming of Age' there is the 'Psych Test' that Wesley and the other candidates undergo so I certainly would not rule out the presence of more than just those two.

[horatio]

I am not much of a fan of ST09 but in my opinion the way they way they tied in the Kobayashi Maru with the death of George Kirk and Kirk's general mindset as a youngster is practically perfect, i.e. it cannot be improved.

[Saquist]

Originally Posted by horatio

I am not much of a fan of ST09 but in my opinion the way they way they tied in the Kobayashi Maru with the death of George Kirk and Kirk's general mindset as a youngster is practically perfect, i.e. it cannot be improved.

I disagree with the perfect.
It was good but the tie in needed acknowledgment from Kirk...
In the movie Kirk was seemingly oblivious to that scenario.

Even worse the movie introduces the No win Scenario and Kirk never faces the No-win scenario which is a concept schism. It's not enough that his father had a no win-scenario. It's about Kirk

The rewrite would have given some connection between the No-Win Scenario and having an Answer to it. In the Movie Kirk's answer is to cheat but it's in a very cavalier fashion. That doesn't connect anywhere to actual events either.

Plus Kirk's solution in the movie isn't any where close to mimicing a No win Scenario....He didn't cheat...the Plot cheated...It was a Deus Ex Machima So he can't get credit for that.

[horatio]

In TWOK it was mentioned that Kirk did reprogram the computer and that's what he seemingly did in ST09 (if you include the cut scenes he did reprogram the computer and Gaila activated his virus-like program). I wouldn't label this "plot cheating" but rather "sticking close to continuity".
The point in TWOK as well as ST09 was that there is no answer to it, no solution, it's just a psycho test which helps to evaluate how cadets deal with life and death situations.

Kirk did cheat the no-win scenario, not at least because he would have liked his father to cheat death as well such that he would have been around for him. This emphasizes his arrogance and stubborness and it neatly starts the "cocky Kirk" story which will last (at least in the old fictional history) all through TOS. It ends at the day at which Khan shoots upon the Enterprise, at which people die because Kirk hasn't followed procedure and activated the shields, at which Kirk faces the no-win scenario for the first time in real life and loses.