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  #11  
Old 08-11-2010, 09:45 AM
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The movie is called insurrection but there wasn't much of a rebellion. It's not an insurrection if the government would never condone. Just because Daugherty was pulling the strings means nothing.

How many bad Admirals have there been bad?
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  #12  
Old 08-11-2010, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by samwiseb View Post
While I doubt I will ever find or make the time to 'catch up' on a lot of the latter Trek I missed after tuning out (being as how I tend to tune out again whenever I try), it sounds like I really need to check out this final season.
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Originally Posted by kevin View Post
I sometimes wonder if I should do the same, even though I've seen the first three seasons and it never clicked for me at all.

Everyone says the fourth season was the best and the episode synopsis are somtimes interesting (I'll never get particularly enthusiastic about the Klingon Ridge explanation however).
I wasn't particularly interested in ENT before Season 4, it just seemed like a mediocre new Trek series with an annoying captain. After having watched season 4 I fell in love with the show and even people who dislike the show enjoyed the last season (at least I don't know anybody who didn't).
There are only two issues, it is pretty fanwankish and there is little exploration going on.
If you guys should ever give it a try I recommend to cherry-pick and start with the Vulcan or the Andorian three-parter in order to not waste time with lesser episodes such that you can immediately know whether this is something for you or not.
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  #13  
Old 08-11-2010, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Saquist View Post
The movie is called insurrection but there wasn't much of a rebellion. It's not an insurrection if the government would never condone. Just because Daugherty was pulling the strings means nothing.

How many bad Admirals have there been bad?
Bad Admirals were the TNG era equivalent of rogue Starfleet Captains (of which TOS had a couple).

But I think it's likely Dougherty wasn't even pulling any strings at all, he seemed to be R'uafo's puppet. Doing what he was told to do and not putting up much of a fight in either direction.
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  #14  
Old 08-11-2010, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by horatio View Post
I wasn't particularly interested in ENT before Season 4, it just seemed like a mediocre new Trek series with an annoying captain. After having watched season 4 I fell in love with the show and even people who dislike the show enjoyed the last season (at least I don't know anybody who didn't).
There are only two issues, it is pretty fanwankish and there is little exploration going on.
If you guys should ever give it a try I recommend to cherry-pick and start with the Vulcan or the Andorian three-parter in order to not waste time with lesser episodes such that you can immediately know whether this is something for you or not.
I do keep checking to see if my local library has them to borrow, I'm reluctant to purchase them these days becuase I remember how indifferent I originally was to seasons 1 and 2 when they first aired here.

I suppose fanwankery isn't the problem (I can't claim it bothered me in the new film, therefore I can't claim it's make or break period I suppose - but I guess it depends on the type of fanwank involved. Some things are fine, some things really don't work at all).

And it can be argued that TNG era Trek didn't have a lot of exploration as such either towards the end (TNG pottered around the Federation core, DS9 was more the war show and VOY was on a quickest route home and didn't get a lot of time to smell the roses or explore all the phenomena they passed) so it seems to have been a TOS thing really!
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  #15  
Old 08-11-2010, 10:47 AM
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Well, there is mild and ultra fanwank, the exploration of the origin of the smooth Klingons definitely fits into the last category.

I remember having read somewhere that CBS released the ENT episodes online but that might be restricted to the US. I wouldn't buy any DVDs of a show I didn't like either.
Good point, exploration was indeed more of a TOS thing and perhaps that's why the absence of any deep-space exploration feels weird when the show shifts from TNG into TOS mode in the fourth season. It kinda doesn't feel TOSish when you meet Andorians, Tellarties and Orions while hanging around Earth's neighbourhood.
In short, although the season is good, worth to watch and (too) highly praised it has its issues.




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Originally Posted by Saquist View Post
The movie is called insurrection but there wasn't much of a rebellion. It's not an insurrection if the government would never condone. Just because Daugherty was pulling the strings means nothing.

How many bad Admirals have there been bad?
I think that Samwise already pointed out the problem with Dougherty the evil Admiral, it is a pattern from TNG and they just went through the moves without adding anything new ... in fact you could label Dougherty a stale melange of characters like Satie and Nechayev.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevin View Post
Bad Admirals were the TNG era equivalent of rogue Starfleet Captains (of which TOS had a couple).

But I think it's likely Dougherty wasn't even pulling any strings at all, he seemed to be R'uafo's puppet. Doing what he was told to do and not putting up much of a fight in either direction.
His passivity didn't really help and it seemed like the writers bailed out with this character. He is just an in-between, in-between Picard and Ruafo as well as in-between the Federation council / Starfleet and the real events on Baku.
You could say that he is the bureaucrat who has an easy way out because he can deflect responsibility away from him ... but as you mentioned some time ago Berman didn't want to go down the political road.

Last edited by horatio : 08-11-2010 at 10:53 AM.
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  #16  
Old 08-11-2010, 05:55 PM
Steve Gennarelli Steve Gennarelli is offline
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Both "Insurrection" and "Nemesis" meant very little to me as I only saw them in the theatre once and have resolved to this day not to watch them on TV/DVD.
I thought the first 1/4 of "Insurrection" was just wonderful and a great start to a "Star Trek" movie, but then it just fell flat on its face.
The "conflict" in the film was just poorly done. The attempts at humor weak at best. Some of it came off really pretentious and that was what I remember from my one viewing in '98.
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  #17  
Old 08-12-2010, 07:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by horatio View Post





I think that Samwise already pointed out the problem with Dougherty the evil Admiral, it is a pattern from TNG and they just went through the moves without adding anything new ... in fact you could label Dougherty a stale melange of characters like Satie and Nechayev.
Satie maybe but Nechayev seemed hard but good.
I thought they attempted to channel Leyton.
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  #18  
Old 08-12-2010, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saquist View Post
Satie maybe but Nechayev seemed hard but good.
I thought they attempted to channel Leyton.
I agree, Nechayev wasn't a bad person. She just had a different take on things. Her character was a bit of a foil for Picard, but she wasn't evil.
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  #19  
Old 08-16-2010, 01:41 PM
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I realize I may have posted this ad-nauseam, but if there was any reason I wouldn't have liked Insurrection (same for First Contact and Generations) is just that the first three TNG films looked too much like overblown episodes.

The stories for the movies were great. But it's what happens when you get small screen writers trying to write for the big screen. They're almost two totally different mediums.

And with the VFX line blurring between small screen and big screen, it's becoming harder and harder for me to be truly impressed with any big screen film anymore.

The last few big screen movies that impressed me were:
The Star Wars prequel trilogy
Star Trek Nemesis
RAMBO
Star Trek (2009)
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The Harry Potter series of movies

(You'll note that there are quite a few movies which should've made the cut....like the LOTR trilogy, but that's only because I did not get to see them on the big screen....so I can't qualify an opinion about those movies. I would've loved to see the LOTR series on the big screen, I just didn't have the time...at the time.)

Movies like the first three TNG films, and Serenity just didn't amaze me on the big screen, because such effects were already done so well on the small screen. Again, they have great stories, but for a big screen epic, I expect a bit more wow and bang for my buck.

Speaking only for myself.
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  #20  
Old 08-22-2010, 02:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Tom Coughlin View Post
I agree, Nechayev wasn't a bad person. She just had a different take on things. Her character was a bit of a foil for Picard, but she wasn't evil.
I think it's important that with Nechayev you could at least see where she was coming from - unlike some of the other 'bad' admirals depicted over the years - even if you did not agree with her decisions etc

That at least gives her a little more than one-dimensionality (even showing she likes tea etc helps shader her a little bit as a person) compared to the likes of Dougherty who was quite simple.
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