[Saquist]

Originally Posted by TheTrekkie

I already had debates with fundamentalistic Christians as well, that also made me fear them. Coz some of my liberal views sometimes collide with the views of conservative Christians.
There is one chapter that always gives me hope afterwards:

"Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?" Romans 8:35

"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:38,39

Originally Posted by Enterprise Captain

So if I don't follow the rules, what happens to me when my time on this ball of rock is over?

According to numerous scriptures after your time on the Earth is done meaning death you will not be conscious of anything: Eccl. 9:5

For the living are conscious that will die but the dead are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten.

6. Also their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished and they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun...

As a doctor will tell you that is exactly the condition of dead people.
That's prety clear to me...how bout you?

The Creationists are Christians are they not? I went to their museum in Kentucky.

Whether you're a christian or not has mroe to do with if you're following Jesus as per the authority that was given him, not if you believe how the Earth and the universe were created. Those are spiritual trivialities.

I personally don't believe in what they believe because that's not what the bible says in the Hebrew. The Hebrew is rather opened by the metaphors of the words it uses to describe the creation days.

These christians are tyring to change the political system in America...they're trying to subvert people into thinking as they do...BY FORCE. Jesus said Chrisitans were to be nuetral and no part of the world because he is no part of the world.

So are they a threat....(sigh) yes.
And they give Chrisitans that do otherwise a bad name and it may cost us all in the end.

[janeway72]

Originally Posted by Saquist

He (God) said to keep from all things unclean and then gave us a guide of what sexual arrangments were clean, men lying with men, beastiality, fornication and adultery all have one very important thing in common. They violate the one marriage arrangment that God put in place when he took the rib of Adam to create Eve, to be one flesh, perfect partners with one another...compliments



That is certainly a politically correct view of our time of fluctuating morals.
But isn't it clear that it isn't supported by scripture?
If the bible is the one thing we have in common then all Christians should agree on that.

If I were to start deciding for myself what is right and wrong how would that make me different from Adam and Eve?
Does that not mean that we are rejecting God's authority?
Wouldn't that mean that we don't trust God to make the right decisions?
Wouldn't that mean that I would be every bit as a Rebel as Adam, Eve and Satan who all were at one time PERFECT and decided for themselves what was right and wrong?

Isn't that the reason all this around us is like it is? Because instead of relying on God who knows everything about us and the universe he created we rely on ourselves?

I truely want to hear what you think Janway. What is your position on humility and respect of authority?

I'm probably what you would class as a liberal Christian. I believe in the Apostles and the Nicene Creed, a lot of which is not explicit in the Bible. I believe that along with scripture, God gave us the ability to use our reason. I have slowly come to the viewpoint as the years have gone on that the Bible is not inerrant - and that's the first time I've admitted that to anyone. I went to Bible college where it was taken for granted that there are no errors in the Bible.

You quoted Timothy I think earlier on where it says all scripture is given to us by God. Paul was talking about Jewish scripture, not the letters that he was currently writing to the various Churches. The Church decided 300 years later which letters and Gospels would become part of Scripture.

I have no idea whether you are right or I am right on the topic of homosexuality but I go back to what Horatio was saying. I follow the Golden rule where I can. To deny someone the right to love, to encourage them into loveless heterosexual marriages (which some churches do), to encourage them into the priesthood because they are not attracted to the correct sex is wrong and must cause psychological pain.

Paul says that I am violating creation if I become a minister in the Church. I know plenty of women who make excellent ministers yet Paul says they are turning the creative order on it's head. I am not weaker than a man in any sense other than the physical. I'm afraid I believe that women and men are equal and should be treated as such and have the same opportunities in life.

[Enterprise Captain]

Originally Posted by Saquist

[/color]

According to numerous scriptures after your time on the Earth is done meaning death you will not be conscious of anything: Eccl. 9:5

For the living are conscious that will die but the dead are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten.

6. Also their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished and they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun...

As a doctor will tell you that is exactly the condition of dead people.
That's prety clear to me...how bout you?

So you are going to inherit God's kingdom and I'm going to become nothing. Do I get to plead my case? Is their a trail or an appeal process?

Originally Posted by Saquist

Whether you're a christian or not has mroe to do with if you're following Jesus as per the authority that was given him, not if you believe how the Earth and the universe were created. Those are spiritual trivialities.

I personally don't believe in what they believe because that's not what the bible says in the Hebrew. The Hebrew is rather opened by the metaphors of the words it uses to describe the creation days.

These christians are tyring to change the political system in America...they're trying to subvert people into thinking as they do...BY FORCE. Jesus said Chrisitans were to be nuetral and no part of the world because he is no part of the world.

So are they a threat....(sigh) yes.
And they give Chrisitans that do otherwise a bad name and it may cost us all in the end.

I don't see the Creationists holding guns to anyone's heads. What do you mean by "Force?"

Originally Posted by janeway72

I am not weaker than a man in any sense other than the physical. I'm afraid I believe that women and men are equal and should be treated as such and have the same opportunities in life.

I also agree that women and men should have the same opportunities. You may actually be physical stronger then some men so don't count yourself out of that department.

[Saquist]

Originally Posted by janeway72

I'm probably what you would class as a liberal Christian. I believe in the Apostles and the Nicene Creed, a lot of which is not explicit in the Bible. I believe that along with scripture, God gave us the ability to use our reason. I have slowly come to the viewpoint as the years have gone on that the Bible is not inerrant - and that's the first time I've admitted that to anyone. I went to Bible college where it was taken for granted that there are no errors in the Bible.

You quoted Timothy I think earlier on where it says all scripture is given to us by God. Paul was talking about Jewish scripture, not the letters that he was currently writing to the various Churches. The Church decided 300 years later which letters and Gospels would become part of Scripture.

I have no idea whether you are right or I am right on the topic of homosexuality but I go back to what Horatio was saying. I follow the Golden rule where I can. To deny someone the right to love, to encourage them into loveless heterosexual marriages (which some churches do), to encourage them into the priesthood because they are not attracted to the correct sex is wrong and must cause psychological pain.

Paul says that I am violating creation if I become a minister in the Church. I know plenty of women who make excellent ministers yet Paul says they are turning the creative order on it's head. I am not weaker than a man in any sense other than the physical. I'm afraid I believe that women and men are equal and should be treated as such and have the same opportunities in life.

That's true that Paul's words here are referring specifically to the Aramaic...however 2 Timothy 1: 13 says: "Keep holding the pattern of healthful words that you heard from me with the faith and love that are in connection with Christ Jesus."

Patterns are important and while there are many different authorities about which are canon books there is agreement on a core of a pattern of agreement of books. Logic (as you know I use in abundance) is deduction and reasoning as well as isolation of patterns.

I understand your reasoning, Janeway.
What I like is that it doesn't begrudge anyone. That is a christian attitude.

Originally Posted by Enterprise Captain

So you are going to inherit God's kingdom and I'm going to become nothing. Do I get to plead my case? Is their a trail or an appeal process?

*shrug*
I don't know what I'll inherit. I question my own deeds in the past as a christian and wonder if the consequences will bear out to be unfavorable. But I know one thing, no matter what the judgment is...I'll accept it. When I got baptized I knew exactly what I was dedicating myself to. So I'm truly responsible perhaps more so than yourself for any wrongs I've done.

As for you I don't know.
I know the wicked will be destroyed at Armageddon to "end this destructive conflict" on the Earth (as Vader would say.) The bible sets a side a difference between the wicked...and the unrighteous. God is the ultimate authority at the Day of Judgment...there will be no appeal for the wicked. The unrighteous will get another chance according to Acts 24:15.

I don't see the Creationists holding guns to anyone's heads. What do you mean by "Force?"

Do you know anything about the Dover Trials?

I also agree that women and men should have the same opportunities. You may actually be physical stronger then some men so don't count yourself out of that department.

It's not about ability, it's about accountability and responsibility. People may or may not be equal but only one person can be in command. To identity that person because God won't always be in direct contact to dictate otherwise the bible established either lineage or gender as that identifier.

Since it's God's church and organization he gets the right to appoint it's King and the structure that it's founded on. The Greek scriptures make no other comment about what women can or cannot do except inside that structure.

Take for instance...Augusta has been razed for their men only policy for years but they made the tournament so it's their rules. I'd be more likely to question their reasoning as opposed to God's reasoning but then I'ved studied the question of women in congregations and why God has the limits in place. What is uncertain is if the future will hold different once we're in better standing with God but for now I accept it as do millions of women across the world.

One Sister told me pointedly, "you have to be satisfied with your place. There are more important things to worry about than rising through the ranks". She meant that if you're worried about getting to the next rung in the ladder, gaining authority, "male or female" you're in the congregation for the wrong reasons.

Being a minister is a heavy responsibility and a privilege that should be taken serious because it's about teaching and instructing people in the right way to live, not about gaining authority. It isn't a business or at least it SHOULD be (Despite all those that have turned it into a business) God is litterally holding them accountable for the guidance in this position.

I know this will not change your perspective but at the very least you'll perhaps understand it's not as arbitrary as it sound on first glance.

So for me as person that constantly questions authority, this is one situation where I know this is not my call, Like it or not I don't have the authority to dictate otherwise. But I'm still in. I trust God on this one.

[janeway72]

Originally Posted by Saquist

One Sister told me pointedly, "you have to be satisfied with your place. There are more important things to worry about than rising through the ranks". She meant that if you're worried about getting to the next rung in the ladder, gaining authority, "male or female" you're in the congregation for the wrong reasons.

Being a minister is a heavy responsibility and a privilege that should be taken serious because it's about teaching and instructing people in the right way to live, not about gaining authority. It isn't a business or at least it SHOULD be (Despite all those that have turned it into a business) God is litterally holding them accountable for the guidance in this position.

I know this will not change your perspective but at the very least you'll perhaps understand it's not as arbitrary as it sound on first glance.

So for me as person that constantly questions authority, this is one situation where I know this is not my call, Like it or not I don't have the authority to dictate otherwise. But I'm still in. I trust God on this one.

It is interesting to note that there were women in charge of the early churches, some that Paul wrote to. Deborah was in charge in the Old Testament. Jesus, on the morning of his resurrection to Mary Magdalene to "Go and tell my brothers that I have risen." There is not a more important message or messenger in the whole of the New Testament

I have known good women ministers and bad woman ministers, good male ministers and bad male ministers. The good female ministers are not in it for the glory or for the authority. They are ministers because they have felt God's call to that particular job in the same way I felt God's call to go into teaching. OTOH, if I wanted to go into the ministry, I think my degree in Theology is as valid as any man's degree in Theology.

It's funny that, if you want to take the story of Adam and Eve literally, God took the bone from Adam's side so that the woman could stand alongside the man. He did not take it from either the head so she could rule over him or from the foot so she could be trampled on by him. The Bible was written in Patriarchal times and in a patriarchal place. That's not the world we live in now.

[Saquist]

Originally Posted by janeway72

It is interesting to note that there were women in charge of the early churches, some that Paul wrote to. Deborah was in charge in the Old Testament. Jesus, on the morning of his resurrection to Mary Magdalene to "Go and tell my brothers that I have risen." There is not a more important message or messenger in the whole of the New Testament

I'll check my source information when I get home in a couple hours. I prefer not to speak in uncertainty.

I have known good women ministers and bad woman ministers, good male ministers and bad male ministers. The good female ministers are not in it for the glory or for the authority. They are ministers because they have felt God's call to that particular job in the same way I felt God's call to go into teaching. OTOH, if I wanted to go into the ministry, I think my degree in Theology is as valid as any man's degree in Theology.

Well like I said it's not about ability but rank.
Do you think that you should be allowed to have that opportunity despite what God has ordained?

What I'm asking is are you the authority that matters to you?
You're a moderator on your forums, correct?
That means you have the ultimate authority. What if someone doesn't like who you've placed in control of your forums? What if someone doesn't agree with your moderation?

It's funny that, if you want to take the story of Adam and Eve literally, God took the bone from Adam's side so that the woman could stand alongside the man. He did not take it from either the head so she could rule over him or from the foot so she could be trampled on by him. The Bible was written in Patriarchal times and in a patriarchal place. That's not the world we live in now.

I agree with that woman was meant to stand along side man but she is properly called the helper in those scriptures too and not a head or leader.
And even though you're right that patriarchal element did impact the Hebrews the question is, did it impact God's decisions?

I don't think so because it doesn't favor man to woman's injury just as the slavery in these times was lawful and not designed to injure slave and favor the Master. The rules were fair for women in treatment and fair for slaves as well as for the alien residents who couldn't own land in ancient Israel.

One could conclude that the Bible is racist from that however there was good reason that couldn't own land in Israel. The inheritance of land was all to serve God and support his purpose of bringing the messiah to Earth. That Messiah needed the line of David to be recognized by prophesy.

If an alien resident could own land, Israel could be taken over by intermarriage this is also a reason why marriage with the nations were forbidden aswell to keep the line's clear from Adam to Jesus.

Since Jesus clearly refers to Adam as a real person and the lineage goes back to Adama and show it's clear and concise line of direction then I must accept that they did consider the creation account and Adam and Eves role in it to be literal.

[Enterprise Captain]

Originally Posted by Saquist

Since Jesus clearly refers to Adam as a real person and the lineage goes back to Adama

?

[janeway72]

Originally Posted by Enterprise Captain

?

I'm just watching BSG for the first time ever! I would have had no idea who he was if you had posted that picture a week ago

[Enterprise Captain]

Originally Posted by janeway72

I'm just watching BSG for the first time ever! I would have had no idea who he was if you had posted that picture a week ago

That's funny, so am I. I just bought the new repackaged box set on Tuesday. I can't wait to get home from work to watch the next episode "Act of Contrition"

[janeway72]

Originally Posted by Saquist

I'll check my source information when I get home in a couple hours. I prefer not to speak in uncertainty.



Well like I said it's not about ability but rank.
Do you think that you should be allowed to have that opportunity despite what God has ordained?

What I'm asking is are you the authority that matters to you?
You're a moderator on your forums, correct?
That means you have the ultimate authority. What if someone doesn't like who you've placed in control of your forums? What if someone doesn't agree with your moderation?

I say that Paul, who as you said also sanctioned slavery, ordained that women should have no authority over men, not God. Jesus said no such thing. In fact he was the champion of minorities and those who were treated as the unequal of Jewish, free men. There used to be a saying for Jewish men in Jesus' time and it was "Blessed art thou, O God, for not making me a Gentile, slave, or woman."

No one is forced to be a member of my forum. I'm not the God of the internet. If people don;t like the way I run the forum they are welcome to find another Star Trek forum or not be a member of a forum. Mine is not the only forum on the Internet. There is only one God. And he ain't sending me private messages threatening to delete my membership.

Originally Posted by Saquist

I agree with that woman was meant to stand along side man but she is properly called the helper in those scriptures too and not a head or leader.
And even though you're right that patriarchal element did impact the Hebrews the question is, did it impact God's decisions?

I don't think so because it doesn't favor man to woman's injury just as the slavery in these times was lawful and not designed to injure slave and favor the Master. The rules were fair for women in treatment and fair for slaves as well as for the alien residents who couldn't own land in ancient Israel.

Exactly which part of owning another person is fair? In 1807, the British concluded that owning another person was wrong. But the Bible, again was written in a different place and time when owning slaves was acceptable. People didn't know any better.

Originally Posted by Saquist

If an alien resident could own land, Israel could be taken over by intermarriage this is also a reason why marriage with the nations were forbidden aswell to keep the line's clear from Adam to Jesus.

Since Jesus clearly refers to Adam as a real person and the lineage goes back to Adama and show it's clear and concise line of direction then I must accept that they did consider the creation account and Adam and Eves role in it to be literal.

Is that the same lineage with Ruth the Moabitess, Rahab the Prostitute and Bathsheba who the wife of Uriah (not the wife of David) at the time David got her pregnant. The Moabites were not Israelites. We also have no idea if there were others missed out of that lineage since the lineage in Matthew's Gospel only take us back to October 29, 4004 BC. I think most of us would agree that the human race is a bit older that 6000 years old.