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  #41  
Old 04-07-2010, 11:06 AM
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  #42  
Old 04-07-2010, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Captain Tom Coughlin View Post
Never put your faith in any large organization of any kind.
I can some what sympathize with this statement. Even with my own religious organization I alway check and recheck their information but that helps to fortify my faith because I don't want to take it for granted.

If "faith is" really defined by "the assured expectation of thing hoped for" (Heb 11:1) then I want constant assurance. My faith has always been justified in our organization even when I've out-right and defiantly have questioned it. The fact that they still tolerate me in the congregation is surprising as well.

Like here, and almost every where else. People tend not to like when you question their authority or things that have long been held or thought true but never really tested and when tested the results ignored. That would be an organization I would immediately walk away from.

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Originally Posted by janeway72 View Post

I agree with what you said earlier, Jesus probably would not be a fan of organised religion.
Jesus apointed 12 Apostles whch is Jewish number of organization and the Kingdom he heads in Heaven is spoken to have 24 elders. Zion apparently has 12 Gates, even the anointed is 12 x 12,000.

I would also point out that Israel was a highly organized Nation of Judicial Theocracy and Jesus Descended from David as an heir of that theocracy and apointed to rule as King over the Earth.

I don't think it's organization that Jesus had a problem with it was false teaching and that is what the pharasies represented. He called them "hypocrites" and "offscprings of vipers"
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  #43  
Old 04-07-2010, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Captain Tom Coughlin View Post
Never put your faith in any large organization of any kind.
I would personally phrase that "Never put blind faith in to anything, always ask questions." Having faith in a large organization isn't necessarily bad but having blind faith in anything is scary

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my own religious organization
May I ask what religious organization you belong to?
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  #44  
Old 04-07-2010, 12:06 PM
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Jesus apointed 12 Apostles whch is Jewish number of organization and the Kingdom he heads in Heaven is spoken to have 24 elders. Zion apparently has 12 Gates, even the anointed is 12 x 12,000.

I would also point out that Israel was a highly organized Nation of Judicial Theocracy and Jesus Descended from David as an heir of that theocracy and apointed to rule as King over the Earth.

I don't think it's organization that Jesus had a problem with it was false teaching and that is what the pharasies represented. He called them "hypocrites" and "offscprings of vipers"
Jesus' problem with the Pharisees was that they stuck religiously to man made rules which they had interpreted from the Torah. He was angry that they could not see and refused to help ordinary people, as in the story of the man with the disabled hand in the Synagogue.
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  #45  
Old 04-07-2010, 04:09 PM
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I have grown up in a liberal Catholic environment and until today I personally don't know any Catholic who doesn't use contraception just because Rome said so. And I guess that the local Catholic churches in South America or Africa even care less about Roman dogma.

But of course sweeping generalizations make the world much simpler and some people need a black&white world with a clear enemy. I will not retaliate in the same simple-minded way and point out all the errors of Evangelicals because I know even though I am no more a Christian that this is not what Jesus wanted us to do: be self-righteous, point fingers on others or start religious in-fights.


Many people who have participated in peaceful demonstrations have been beaten up by police officers over the years and obviously these officers have been covered by some of their fellow officers. That kind of corps spirit is wide-spread ... but it's not like the entire police force is corrupt just because a few police officers misbehave.

Sure, one has to think about how to reduce misuse of power, how to better watch the watchers ... but it is simply not possible to make the world perfect. Same with sexual violence, it happens everywhere.

I'd also like to point out again that many cases of sexual abuse happened in boarding schools or other environments in which children are further away from the protection of their natural lobby, their parents.

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  #46  
Old 04-07-2010, 05:04 PM
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I'd like to add that in my humble opinion, you don't need churches to be a Christian. Jesus wanted to simplify Judaism, he disliked the many laws that made no sense like no eating at Sabbath and he reduced the Ten Commandments to two, love God and love your fellow human beings. Ethics aren't that complicated.

But that was too simple, people re-complicated matters, churches were born and Christianity merged with other ideas like Neo-Platonism (quite natural to appreciate the idea of seperation of matter and ideas when you believe in resurrection). Nowadays there are plenty of Christian churches with their different rituals and their different sets of rules. If Jesus came back he might very well say something like: "Gee, folks, I didn't want to split from Judaism, I just wanted to get back to basics. And look what you have done! Get rid of all that nonsense, keep it sweet and simple."
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  #47  
Old 04-08-2010, 03:25 AM
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Originally Posted by janeway72 View Post
Jesus' problem with the Pharisees was that they stuck religiously to man made rules which they had interpreted from the Torah. He was angry that they could not see and refused to help ordinary people, as in the story of the man with the disabled hand in the Synagogue.
That as well,
Yet look at the Sabbath, the day of rest, in which Jesus was chastized for violating when he removed the chaff of the wheat to have food in the field. The Sabbath is God's command to Israel to hold. Jesus pointed out properly "which of you would not" rescue an *** from the well on the Sabbath. That mule represented an investment they weren't willing to part with and the rescue would definitely be work.

They had no sense of mercy for the people.
The Law wasn't meant to be a bludgen.
Jesus even represented a threat to their authority.

The clergy behave similarly. I don't think their acting with mercy toward these victims. They are not truely caring for their flock and the only thing their really afraid of is losing face and authority otherwise their would not be so many victims and undisciplined offenders or any attempt to route them from the churches and institute policies to keep them away at all times. They even allowed homosexuals with the ranks of the church which according to the bible Christians all trust in (or at least should) is in blatant contradiction of.

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I'd like to add that in my humble opinion, you don't need churches to be a Christian. Jesus wanted to simplify Judaism, he disliked the many laws that made no sense like no eating at Sabbath and he reduced the Ten Commandments to two, love God and love your fellow human beings. Ethics aren't that complicated.

But that was too simple, people re-complicated matters, churches were born and Christianity merged with other ideas like Neo-Platonism (quite natural to appreciate the idea of seperation of matter and ideas when you believe in resurrection). Nowadays there are plenty of Christian churches with their different rituals and their different sets of rules. If Jesus came back he might very well say something like: "Gee, folks, I didn't want to split from Judaism, I just wanted to get back to basics. And look what you have done! Get rid of all that nonsense, keep it sweet and simple."
(Hebrews 10:24-25) “. . ., 25 not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as YOU behold the day drawing near.”

You're right Jesus fulfilled the Law Covenanat and instituted a New Covenant that didn't excluded everyone. His ransom afterall was for all of man. The Law Covenant was only for Israel. Yet another necessary reason for this change was because of the preaching work that he commanded the Christians to do. It would still required an organized effort and thus congregations were created to facilitate that effort of taking God's word to the nations...which was the purpose of Israel, to be an example, unfortunantly Israel rejected this new direction and the messiah that was meant to save them all.

But Organization was always a chief concern for Israel and Chrisitians. Without it Christians would not be where it is today. God is one of order and Jesus and Paul did a very good job representing that on Earth.
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  #48  
Old 04-08-2010, 06:05 AM
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Originally Posted by horatio View Post
I'd like to add that in my humble opinion, you don't need churches to be a Christian. Jesus wanted to simplify Judaism, he disliked the many laws that made no sense like no eating at Sabbath and he reduced the Ten Commandments to two, love God and love your fellow human beings. Ethics aren't that complicated.

But that was too simple, people re-complicated matters, churches were born and Christianity merged with other ideas like Neo-Platonism (quite natural to appreciate the idea of seperation of matter and ideas when you believe in resurrection). Nowadays there are plenty of Christian churches with their different rituals and their different sets of rules. If Jesus came back he might very well say something like: "Gee, folks, I didn't want to split from Judaism, I just wanted to get back to basics. And look what you have done! Get rid of all that nonsense, keep it sweet and simple."
This is the best post in the thread so far in my opinion. Religion is man made and as a result all of them have flaws. Like you said "Ethics aren't that complicated." So if people just focused more on universal morals instead of all the traditions and rituals that more then half the time end up overshadowing the actual messages they are meant to convey then humanity would probably be much better off as a result. I also agree that if Jesus came back he probably would not be happy with religion as it exists today.
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  #49  
Old 04-08-2010, 06:42 AM
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I've always said that if Jesus was looking at Earth from the pearly gates with St Peter, he'd say "You know when I told you to build my Church? Well I didn't mean a Church like that."

I have hardly been to Church in the last year because I disagreed with the anti-gay stance taken by my minister over the appointment of a gay minister up in the north of Scotland. I actually walked out of the service. At some point I'll find myself a Church that is accepting of gay people in the Church.

Every Christian is selective about the parts of the Bible they choose to follow. As a woman, I don't cover my head in Church, I eat bacon and other pork products and I wear clothes made of more than one fibre mixed together... where would we be without a cotton/ polyester mix? And any Christian who believes they follow the Bible to the letter is not being truthful to themselves or else they would be carrying out sacrifices on the Day of Atonement.

The Bible is a not a rule book. The ideas within it should be lived out in your life and carried with you in your heart. The Bible should not be used to bash people over the head with.

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged." Matt 7:1

"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." Matthew 22:36-40
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  #50  
Old 04-08-2010, 07:54 AM
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I've always said that if Jesus was looking at Earth from the pearly gates with St Peter, he'd say "You know when I told you to build my Church? Well I didn't mean a Church like that."

I have hardly been to Church in the last year because I disagreed with the anti-gay stance taken by my minister over the appointment of a gay minister up in the north of Scotland. I actually walked out of the service. At some point I'll find myself a Church that is accepting of gay people in the Church.

Every Christian is selective about the parts of the Bible they choose to follow. As a woman, I don't cover my head in Church, I eat bacon and other pork products and I wear clothes made of more than one fibre mixed together... where would we be without a cotton/ polyester mix? And any Christian who believes they follow the Bible to the letter is not being truthful to themselves or else they would be carrying out sacrifices on the Day of Atonement.

The Bible is a not a rule book. The ideas within it should be lived out in your life and carried with you in your heart. The Bible should not be used to bash people over the head with.

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged." Matt 7:1

"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." Matthew 22:36-40
I'll agree with one thing. The bible should not be used to bash people over the head but I do think it is a guide for how to be a good human being. I also believe the whole bible is God's word. "All scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight for disciplining in righteous, so that the man of God maybe fully competent and completely equipped for every good work." 2 Timothy 3: 16,17

While I make it a practice to obey the bibles word on all things, I know that the New Coevenant was meant for Christians and we are not bond by the promise that the Jews made to God through abraham....

Therefore the Ten Commandments and the Judicial decisions mentioned after them I consider princples. I don't have to observe the Sabath, attendend the festival of booths, Passover, Day of Atonement and sacrifice animals on an alter. Jesus said that he fufilled that Law and like your post shows he started a new Law.

The question is does the Law to love your neighbor mean your neighbor is approved in the eyes of God no matter his actions? Men who lie with men is mentioned right along with fornicators and adulters and murders to the point that in another scripture it describes them entering into his kingdom and later Paul says..."this is what some of you were."

Don't get me wrong I understand your angst. There has been much ado about whether homosexuality is right, genetic or not, behavioral or just the way you are.

But doing what God requires of me doesn't require me to be anti-human. I don't agree with the practice because it disagrees with the inspired scriptures...and other personal reasons but that doesn't mean I'm anti-gay. I'm not against gay people just as I'm not anti-fornicator- anti murder...I'm not against people only the behavior.

People are not what they do, they are more and I can love the person, treat them fairly, work with them and encourage them and yet not hate them or rally against them or violate their beliefs.

That's the whole Idea of being a Christian.
Jesus raised the burdeon of the law that once protected them to know allow them and us to better relate to those we talk, work and associate with who are of every nation. Christians today either don't know this or forget themselves. I never forget that this isn't my world. I don't make the rules...not even God makes the rules on Earth. His kingdom "is no part of this world" and I really do believe that. We're here but this not what God intended the Earth to be.
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