[janeway72]

Originally Posted by Enterprise Captain

Would you look at that.

In Saquist's defense I believe he was talking about the people that actually run the institution of the Catholic Church not its followers. Saquist please correct me if I'm wrong.

This is true but I don't believe that all people at the top knew what was going on. Yes, they knew that there was abuse going on... everyone knew that because it is all over the news. But to do anything about it, they needed to know specifics, and I suspect a lot of them didn't know.

Cardinal Ratzinger, if we believe the news from a few days ago, was entirely in the wrong (I'm not saying I don't believe it but the jury is out until there is more info). Did Pope John Paul II know? Well we'll never know the answer to that.

[Enterprise Captain]

Originally Posted by janeway72

This is true but I don't believe that all people at the top knew what was going on. Yes, they knew that there was abuse going on... everyone knew that because it is all over the news. But to do anything about it, they needed to know specifics, and I suspect a lot of them didn't know.

Cardinal Ratzinger, if we believe the news from a few days ago, was entirely in the wrong (I'm not saying I don't believe it but the jury is out until there is more info). Did Pope John Paul II know? Well we'll never know the answer to that.

I agree that not everyone in the Catholic Church knew exactly what was going on. Here is my friends response to the Catholic Church abuse scandal from his Facebook wall. "Hypocrisy: The Catholic Church accusing its critics of extending a personal guilt to collective responsibility in an attempt to smear the Church. Collective guilt is your entire ethos! It is the central tenet behind every lie you preach! We're going to hell because a fictional character ate an apple, but you're in the clear when your holy men molest children?" It's a little harsh but it makes a good point I think. I think why so many people are upset by this whole thing is because the Catholic Church is trying to point fingers at individuals with in the organization instead of saying we have a problem here and we are going to do our best to fix it. I think the Church needs to focus more on fixing the problem then assigning blame.

[janeway72]

I agree. I'd love to know who the Church's PR men are because they are making a right pig's ear of the whole thing. A "Mea Culpa" would have been much more effective. And, yes, fixing the problem would be the best thing they could do for all concerned. I suspect they are trying to protect the Pope, but I think the court of public opinion has already found him guilty of ignoring the truth.

[TheTrekkie]

Originally Posted by janeway72

That's because the Catholic Church teaches that Church tradition is as important as the Bible. I don't agree with all that Catholicism teaches and their teaching about the use of condoms is downright dangerous.

I even don't think of condoms. That's a law almost noone keeps anyway. Like many other laws it's just a formal one, but none filled with life by many, even not by many Catholics.
The bible of course says nothing about it, how should it. It's an additional doctrine noone needed, noone would miss.

However the wrong teachings go a lot deeper. The pope e.g. Clearly against Christian beliefs.

There are plenty of people in the Protestant Church who can be likened to the Pharisees and Sadducees.

Yes.
Organized religion often brings out the worst not the best of its believers. Like almost every organisation does. Every individual has good and bad aspects, a big group however more often aggregates the bad than the good aspects. Because a group has to fulfill some conditions to not collaps, the more homogenious and the less individualistic it is the better, therefore it often has to create a concept of enemy and force dissenter to return to the path of the group, groups often rely on some kind of hierarchy, very flat or non-existing hierarchies often only work in very small groups...

The people in protestant churches are not worse or better. Humans are all alike, no matter how they call themselves.
However goal of the protestant movement was to individualize religion, that all teachings have to be meassured by the bible. If you detect something that stands against the bible a protestant is expected to stand up for his belief and leave the wrong teachings, a Catholic however is expected to follow "God's" Church, no matter if it is right or wrong.

[Saquist]

Originally Posted by janeway72

Of course they are not operating under the Holy Spirit but where do you get your number of 4x the number of people standing by and letting it happen?

I get 4x because dividing the study of the ratio of abuser, victims and enablers in half. Out of 10 people one is an abuser and one is the victim which the other merely stand an watch. It's another 80 percentile figure.

I don't think anyone on this thread has said or even implied that child abuse or allowing child abuse to happen is acceptable, moral or legal. I think we are all pretty much on the same wavelength on that one. I think everyone has agreed that those who knew about it should be dealt with severely.

However, you make sweeping generalisations about the whole Catholic Church. That is unfair on the tens of millions of honest, law abiding Roman Catholics. The Church is the people of God, it is not the institution. I do believe that there are those in high up positions in the Church who had no knowledge of individual events and there are those who did. And those who did know should be called to account.

There is no generalization. They knew, they covered it up and you know that. You're defending those who allowed it. You're becoming one of them, which means you're the 80 percentile too. You don't hold the organization responsible for you it's about some...belief ...a hope that "some" higher ups didn't know about it.

LOOK at the figures. It doesn't take a genius to know numbers of this scale do not go unnoticed even at the top. Even if just some at the top knew about these devils in their midst and said nothing, did nothing that is more than 50% corrupt. The archdioses are the branches of the Catholic Church they are the..

That tells me either the bishops and Pope are TOO high to see the coruption, holed up in their gold lined Vatican or there was a conspiracy of EPIC proportions in the arch dioses to preven the higher ups from hearing about it. Neither reflects well on the organization as a whole.

Originally Posted by TheTrekkie

However many of the Catholic teaches are quite clearly in oposite to the bible.

But that doesn't mean it is dangerous or its believers are automatically bad!

It's just not correct, the Catholic Church in many aspects is a lot like the Pharisee in the bible. There are many rituals and traditions that are oposite to Jesus teachings. Now they are not dangerous anymore, in the past they were used by the mighty to strengthen their position and justify violence, supression etc.pp.

You're correct, the Catholic Church does not follow the Holly Scriptures. That's not the point though. That past is theres and it has nothing to do with God and no case can be made now SUDDENLY they are a God apointed organization.

This...blindness...at the least, and knowing at the most still has the same result....Enabling. These are men trained to do God's will, their supposed to be righteous doers of good not watchers of evil.

Originally Posted by Enterprise Captain

In Saquist's defense I believe he was talking about the people that actually run the institution of the Catholic Church not its followers. Saquist please correct me if I'm wrong.

Indeed the Followers are the VICTIMS.
That's the only thing that is for sure.

Originally Posted by janeway72

This is true but I don't believe that all people at the top knew what was going on. Yes, they knew that there was abuse going on... everyone knew that because it is all over the news. But to do anything about it, they needed to know specifics, and I suspect a lot of them didn't know.

If only some knew, and I have to believe some did because of the shear numbers involved then that is corruption. It's not a generalization. The top of the chain and the bottom of the chain...KNEW...

Cardinal Ratzinger, if we believe the news from a few days ago, was entirely in the wrong (I'm not saying I don't believe it but the jury is out until there is more info). Did Pope John Paul II know? Well we'll never know the answer to that.

And if he didn't know he's one man and apparently the one man that doesn't matter...why? Because no one told him.

[Enterprise Captain]

Originally Posted by janeway72

I agree. I'd love to know who the Church's PR men are because they are making a right pig's ear of the whole thing. A "Mea Culpa" would have been much more effective. And, yes, fixing the problem would be the best thing they could do for all concerned.

Hey look we are on a role. Unfortunatly the problem is complex and like you said:

Originally Posted by janeway72

I suspect they are trying to protect the Pope

I suspect the same thing and unfortunately I don't see the Catholic Church fixing the problems at hand while this "protect the image of the Church" attitude is in place among the people running it. I think this attitude needs to change before the problems are going to be properly investigated and delt with.

[janeway72]

Originally Posted by Enterprise Captain

I suspect the same thing and unfortunately I don't see the Catholic Church fixing the problems at hand while this "protect the image of the Church" attitude is in place among the people running it. I think this attitude needs to change before the problems are going to be properly investigated and delt with.

And we are still on a roll. I agree again. Perhaps this will give them the kick up the backside they need. Sadly, I too think that they are too busy protecting their image to be protecting the innocents. But maybe that one Archbishop speaking out will encourage others to do the same. You sometimes find it only takes one brave person to get the ball rolling. Let's hope!

[janeway72]

Originally Posted by Saquist

I get 4x because dividing the study of the ratio of abuser, victims and enablers in half. Out of 10 people one is an abuser and one is the victim which the other merely stand an watch. It's another 80 percentile figure.

8% of boys and 12% of girls are sexually abused at some point in their lives. By your estimations 8 out of 10 of the general population know about a child who is being abused and do nothing about it. I hardly think so!

[Captain Tom Coughlin]

Never put your faith in any large organization of any kind.

[janeway72]

Originally Posted by Captain Tom Coughlin

Never put your faith in any large organization of any kind.

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