[RabidFan]

Seriously though, I really think they need to start building towards Kirks one great flaw...his completely emotional and over the top hatred for the Klingons. They need to start building up events that slowly builds this up in Kirk.

One of my favorite lines in all the movies is when Spock tells Kirk they are dying and Kirk says "let them die!!!"

I think its a very defining thing for Kirk. It also wasnt one thing that turned Kirk to this hatred. I always thought it was interesting that with all the ideals that Kirk had and his belief in the principles of the Federation that he harbored this hate and that it could so warp his thinking and actions. It was a great flaw in his personality. It also showed how the best of us can be warped my circumstances into thinking in a manner that goes against everything we believe in.

Now Im not saying that that hate needs to be realized in the next movie. But they should start building towards it. His hate was something that grew over time because of many different incidents. We should see it start to progress. It would also help to move Kirk towards a more mature Starfleet Captain. Give him more tragedy in his life, he relates to Spock more...they rely on each other more because they both have great tragedy in their life (I know losing his father is a great tragedy but he never really feels that tragedy in its fullest as he never new his father).

There are so many subplots that this would nurture. It would be a great catalyst for moving forward with the franchise.

[starwarsrcks]

I agree that would make a great story arc

[TJJones]

Rabidfan, I don't think Kirk of the 2260s and 70s was defined by his hatred of Klingons. In fact, while they were his adversaries, I don't think he ever exhibited any real hatred for them until after David's death in 2285. That, from my viewpoint, was the catalyst that drove him to hatred.

[OneBuckFilms]

Originally Posted by TJJones

Rabidfan, I don't think Kirk of the 2260s and 70s was defined by his hatred of Klingons. In fact, while they were his adversaries, I don't think he ever exhibited any real hatred for them until after David's death in 2285. That, from my viewpoint, was the catalyst that drove him to hatred.

I agree.

KIRK: I've never trusted Klingons, and I never will. I can never forgive them for the death of my boy.

That, and by Star Trek VI, he's had quite a few run-ins with the Klingons, few of them pleasant.

[RabidFan]

Originally Posted by TJJones

Rabidfan, I don't think Kirk of the 2260s and 70s was defined by his hatred of Klingons. In fact, while they were his adversaries, I don't think he ever exhibited any real hatred for them until after David's death in 2285. That, from my viewpoint, was the catalyst that drove him to hatred.

Like I said..it wasnt one event that caused him to have hatred. It was a lot of events that culminated with the death of his son.

Like he said. He never trusted them.

I never said his hatred of the klingons defined him. But it was a defining thing for him. That may seem like Im contradicting myself but Im not. It was just one thing that defined him but an important thing.

To explore what lead up to that hatred would be awesome to watch. Khan was huge for him but really that was just 2 events in his entire life. But the Klingons were a constant antagonist for him his entire career leading up to his hatred. If the only interaction he had ever had was when the klingons killed his son, I think he would only have hated those that did it. But because of all his experience with Klingons he saw them as all being the same. All being responsible for his sons death. Because he had so much experience with them prior to his sons death. Everything told him that they were all like that. That they all deserved his hate.

Tell me that that is not defining. Did it define him completely as a man and as a Captain? No. Did it have a major and one of the biggest impacts on his life and how he viewed the universe? Yes.

[DNA-1842]

Originally Posted by RabidFan

Like I said..it wasnt one event that caused him to have hatred. It was a lot of events that culminated with the death of his son.

Like he said. He never trusted them.

I never said his hatred of the klingons defined him. But it was a defining thing for him. That may seem like Im contradicting myself but Im not. It was just one thing that defined him but an important thing.

To explore what lead up to that hatred would be awesome to watch. Khan was huge for him but really that was just 2 events in his entire life. But the Klingons were a constant antagonist for him his entire career leading up to his hatred. If the only interaction he had ever had was when the klingons killed his son, I think he would only have hated those that did it. But because of all his experience with Klingons he saw them as all being the same. All being responsible for his sons death. Because he had so much experience with them prior to his sons death. Everything told him that they were all like that. That they all deserved his hate.

Tell me that that is not defining. Did it define him completely as a man and as a Captain? No. Did it have a major and one of the biggest impacts on his life and how he viewed the universe? Yes.

But first he would have to have a reason to hate the Klingons... But he doesn't have a son to die and his father was killed but Romulans already; plus he didn't really seem to show much hatred towards Nero...

Klingon atagonist: Good idea. Kirk hating said Klingons woth a passion: unwieldy, and tricky. As yet.

Maybe in the far future!

[Dominus of Megadeus]

Originally Posted by janeway72

Apart from the fact it is a rubbish idea and I really don't want to see a rehash of a perfectly good movie (not that that has ever stopped Hollywood). TWOK is set much later than the 5 year mission so either they would have to make Space Seed into a movie or they would have to age the crew considerably.

Besides, the fact that they all got together on the Enterprise together in a different way than in TOS canon, this means that the Five Year Mission is an entirely different mission - if it happens at all. So they might never meet Khan.

[RabidFan]

Originally Posted by DNA-1842

But first he would have to have a reason to hate the Klingons... But he doesn't have a son to die and his father was killed but Romulans already; plus he didn't really seem to show much hatred towards Nero...

Klingon atagonist: Good idea. Kirk hating said Klingons woth a passion: unwieldy, and tricky. As yet.

Maybe in the far future!

see you totally misunderstood me. I didnt say he would hate them now. I said I want to see the events that build up to that hate. Thats why he needs a Klingon antagonist. His mistrust and dislike for them needs to be built up.

I agree him hating them now would make no sense what so ever and that was never what I was calling for. I want him to start having his interactions with them, major incidents, to start building up to the point where they cross the line and turns it all to hate. I dont want the hate to start in the next movie...nor the movie after that. I just want to see the progression towards that hate. Only way to see that is if in the next two movies he is dealing with Klingons as the major antagonists.

Have them make a deal on something then they betray that deal and do a sneak attack on him. That would be a great way to start his distrust of them. Something like that to set the tone for the movie would be great. At the same time, dont make it that they did it out of evilness, make it out of their xenophobia. Their way of thinking is they dont trust him already so they will do to him what they are sure he is going to do to them.

As before yes no hate now...but we should start to see his problems with the Klingons so as to hint at what it will become one day.

[starwarsrcks]

What you want Nu Kirk to develop a hate for the klingons he hasn't even met them

[TheTrekkie]

Originally Posted by kevin

To be honest, even without such a scene that was what I took him to be doing when he closed his eyes as the ship was breaking up.

Me, too.

As weak as Nero is in the story as much does Eric Bana rescue his role with a very good performance in his few Nero scenes.