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  #21  
Old 01-17-2010, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by celticarchie View Post
Is Kirk's character in TWOK really that inconsistent with TOS though?

Remember The Corbomite Maneuver. He beats a similar no-win situation in an unconventional way.

Is Kirk even a "cheater"? - we only think that because his son (who doesn't particularly like him) says "he cheated".

But Kirk says he "changed the conditions of the test" and got a "commendation for original thinking".

Which suggests to me that Kirk's actual "solution" to the no-win scenario was to think of a condition in the test that could happen, that the programmers hadn't considered.

Which is why I like the book version where...

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'Changed the conditions of the test' is a pretty self-justifying euphemism for cheating - the test was not his to set the parameters for. Nor did he outright deny it was a cheat when he said it.

Even at that, the depiction of a man who would change the test rather than face it as it was intended would appear to be inconsistent with the bookworm in whose class you had to be sharp and ready. Granted this comes from 'WNMHGB' but since that was actually aired then it forms part of the context of the character.

The rest of his actions/depictions over TOS becomes less and less like that description, true, which is why his depiction in the new film isn't really a major issue for me. His attitude and presentation in it is corroborated by more of TOS and the movies than it isn't.

Though certainly he may deny (from his perspective) it was a cheat - it's in all honesty a bit hard to see it any other way.
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  #22  
Old 01-17-2010, 01:25 PM
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I still don't think that "cheating" is the correct term. We are to believe that Kirk took the test not once, but twice before he attempted to change the conditions. In addition, he changed the conditions in such a way that it was patently obvious that he had tinkered with the program. He made no attempt to portray the third test as an honest effort.

When you CHEAT on a test you attempt to pass the result off as your honest work (i.e., you present answers that someone else created as your own, you make yourself appear to be better prepared than you are by reviewing the test in advance). Kirk didn't do any of these things. He did not attempt to make the result appear to be attributable his skill as a commander.

What Kirk did could best be characterized as a "prank," or even a "protest" of a test that he considered unfair. He knew that everyone in the room would realize he had altered the test, and intended for them to get his point that he didn't like the test, so that he could communicate his message that the test is worthless.
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  #23  
Old 01-17-2010, 02:02 PM
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I could agree he may have done what he did in order to bring about a debate on the nature of the test - the ensuing discussion he had with Spock in the new film would IMO tend to imply that was part of it.

Problem is, we have no idea if such discussion took place in the original timeline.

The second issue is that while the test may be worthless to Kirk it is not in and of itself worthless. His philosophy was not to entertain the notion of defeat and as such he was completely conceptually unable to grasp the point the test was trying to make. It wasn't within his capacity because of his mindset.

He could never have passed it as it was intended to be sat (based on what we can take about the intentions of the test). Reality would seem to indicate that a Captain should be prepared for the worst-case scenario, even if it's to be a last resort.

But as we know, James Kirk simply doesn't hold with that.
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  #24  
Old 01-17-2010, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by horatio View Post
Because his tests say so, because Pike says so, because his quick Academy career says so ... but naahh, all bloody lies.

Seriously, I don't pretend that I wouldn't have prefered a more complex Kirk, one who is closer to the one described in early TOS. But that's just preferences and hardly a reason to question the sincerity of Kirk's characterization in this movie.
They say he is XYZ, so he is XYZ. Don't like it? Just say so.
It's just not believable based on how we saw the character in the film. However, i can totally see Pine's Kirk as the guy in class who befriends the smartest girl in class, has her do all his homework, then dumps her at the end of the sememster, after he meets the next girl who will do his homework for his next class.
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  #25  
Old 01-17-2010, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by martok2112 View Post
Except a major box office draw, the promise of a sequel, and the revival of Star Trek.
I don't think this is going to revive Star Trek at all, it's just prolonging it's demise. There is nothing from the original franchise in this movie at all. None of the equipment ships are from the original show. This is a totally different/flawed Star Trek. A truely successful movie holds the #1 spot for more than one week. Star Trek failed to do that. Like it or not the franchise is KIA. I'm sure as sh-t not helping to prolong the death of the franchise at least I can face reality unlike some people. Cya b-tches.
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  #26  
Old 01-17-2010, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by JamesTKirk1701 View Post
I don't think this is going to revive Star Trek at all, it's just prolonging it's demise. There is nothing from the original franchise in this movie at all. None of the equipment ships are from the original show. This is a totally different/flawed Star Trek. A truely successful movie holds the #1 spot for more than one week. Star Trek failed to do that. Like it or not the franchise is KIA. I'm sure as sh-t not helping to prolong the death of the franchise at least I can face reality unlike some people. Cya b-tches.
Actually, it HAS revived Star Trek. Fact.
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  #27  
Old 01-17-2010, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by JamesTKirk1701 View Post
A truely successful movie holds the #1 spot for more than one week. Star Trek failed to do that. Like it or not the franchise is KIA. I'm sure as sh-t not helping to prolong the death of the franchise at least I can face reality unlike some people. Cya b-tches.
Please - if that's all you can trot out (an old, old line I might add) you clearly know nothing about what constitutes a successful film so don't pretend you do.

Try and face that reality.
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  #28  
Old 01-18-2010, 04:11 AM
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I think that the powers that be had to aknowledge his ingenuity in being able to evade the various safeguards in place rather than commend the act of cheating itself but I would not concede that such an act would qualify him for leadership, merely the commendation that he got in the TOS timeline, which probably did advance his career.

In NuTrek, the chips were down and they needed an unconventional plan but I thought that the plan they came up with was ridiculous. They have a ship full of starfleet officers and a ship full of Romulans and yet they beam across only two officers who then have to split up. If either one of them was injured, killed, or captured the plan would have failed because they would have had no other chance to beam anybody on board. Tactically it's about as wise as only giving the explosives to one crewman on a high risk skydiving mission...

If they had filled all their transporter pads with security teams to make use of the initial window it would have made more sense. One or more teams could have failed to get a lock before the transporters were unavailable, they could then have split into two teams, killed the redshirts, and maybe even let one of the red shirts survive (Mr Leslie or Janice Rand could have slotted nicely in here).

Overall, Kirk deserved a second commendation for his actions, maybe promotion to second officer or first officer on a ship with a view to fast-tracking him for command. However, I thought that his performance in the movie showed that he takes unnecessary risks and gambles with his own life recklessly. If anybody has watched Generation Kill recently, that gives a good idea of what this kind of gung-ho leadership style can lead to - inncoent people being killed. The fact that Kirk succeeds because the movie is about him shouldn't detract from the fact that his behaviour should not be assessed with hindsight all the time. They should ask what he could have done to reduce the risks and chances of failure. In that respect, NuKirk is too green and isn't ready for command.
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  #29  
Old 01-18-2010, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by JamesTKirk1701 View Post
I don't think this is going to revive Star Trek at all, it's just prolonging it's demise. There is nothing from the original franchise in this movie at all. None of the equipment ships are from the original show. This is a totally different/flawed Star Trek. A truely successful movie holds the #1 spot for more than one week. Star Trek failed to do that. Like it or not the franchise is KIA. I'm sure as sh-t not helping to prolong the death of the franchise at least I can face reality unlike some people. Cya b-tches.
The franchise is dead from your perspective. That is your opinion. I can respect that opinion, as this movie did not please everyone.

No movie ever does.

And I honestly have yet to see a flawless Trek.
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  #30  
Old 01-18-2010, 07:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pauln6 View Post
I think that the powers that be had to aknowledge his ingenuity in being able to evade the various safeguards in place rather than commend the act of cheating itself but I would not concede that such an act would qualify him for leadership, merely the commendation that he got in the TOS timeline, which probably did advance his career.

In NuTrek, the chips were down and they needed an unconventional plan but I thought that the plan they came up with was ridiculous. They have a ship full of starfleet officers and a ship full of Romulans and yet they beam across only two officers who then have to split up. If either one of them was injured, killed, or captured the plan would have failed because they would have had no other chance to beam anybody on board. Tactically it's about as wise as only giving the explosives to one crewman on a high risk skydiving mission...

If they had filled all their transporter pads with security teams to make use of the initial window it would have made more sense. One or more teams could have failed to get a lock before the transporters were unavailable, they could then have split into two teams, killed the redshirts, and maybe even let one of the red shirts survive (Mr Leslie or Janice Rand could have slotted nicely in here).

Overall, Kirk deserved a second commendation for his actions, maybe promotion to second officer or first officer on a ship with a view to fast-tracking him for command. However, I thought that his performance in the movie showed that he takes unnecessary risks and gambles with his own life recklessly. If anybody has watched Generation Kill recently, that gives a good idea of what this kind of gung-ho leadership style can lead to - inncoent people being killed. The fact that Kirk succeeds because the movie is about him shouldn't detract from the fact that his behaviour should not be assessed with hindsight all the time. They should ask what he could have done to reduce the risks and chances of failure. In that respect, NuKirk is too green and isn't ready for command.
But that is pretty much how Kirk acted in TOS as far as taking risks and gambling with his own life.
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