The Official Star Trek Movie Forum

The Official Star Trek Movie Forum > Star Trek > Star Trek XI: The Movie > The Least Credible Part of the Plot in the Movie
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01-01-2010, 08:21 AM
chator's Avatar
chator chator is offline
Commander
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,261
Default The Least Credible Part of the Plot in the Movie

Granted, there are several. But this is the one that gets me. Narada is disabled enough through George Kirk's suicide-run that Klingons are able to capture Nero and his ship, while the escape shuttles of the KELVIN get away. The Klingons, according to the deleted interrogation scene, hold Nero and Aiel for twenty years! Presumably, during this time wouldn't the Klingons have taken the Narada apart piece by piece? Well, they didn't. Nor did they discover Nero's secret until they are able to steal papers being kept for Nero by an alien on Rura Penthe, twenty years following his capture. Nero and his crew? are able to recapture the Narada, once they escape from Rura Penthe, and repair its damage sufficiently that his ship is able to destroy nearly 47 Klingon ships, prior to destroying nearly as many Federation ships, and the entire Vulcan fleet (was there even one? Or was Vulcan completely dependent on the Federation for its defense? If so, how logical is that?), before Enterprise arrives to save the day. This is, of course, the plot based on the inclusion of the deleted Klingon scenes. Maybe the extra-ordinary suspension of belief required to believe this plot is the reason why the Klingon scenes were deleted, not to mention the lack of scenes showing Nero and his crew recapturing their ship and getting away from the Klingons.

Last edited by chator : 01-01-2010 at 01:58 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 01-01-2010, 08:38 AM
kevin's Avatar
kevin kevin is offline
Federation Councillor
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: East Kilbride, Glasgow, UK
Posts: 21,078
Default

Actually since that was all deleted out we have no reason to worry about it since it is not part of the final film.

It's superflous to the point of the film.

However, in fairness the 25 year gap is a slightly problematic area. But only because they decided to bring the Narada back at a time in which it coincided with James Kirk's birth. And it is true that the more they try and explain that 25 year period the more of a hole they dig with it.

Therefore, it makes sense to leave it more open than to try (especially when said detailed explanantion is not a strict requirement for the film) and then get on with the main part of the film that starts when Spock arrives and he turns up at Vulcan.

Especially since it stikll leaves intact the basic reason from the film that he essentially had to wait for Spock to arrive to begin putting his plan into motion.

Also the initial interrogation scene gave too much away too early about who Nero was, where he had come from and what his endgame was and IMO I suspect that was likely the main reason it was removed. To attempt to preserve the mystery until the 'mindmeld' sequence explained it. Once that scene was gone, then it was as well to remove all the others as well because there isn't enough of them left to mean anything.

As James Cameron once said - it's better to remove an entire subplot from a film rather than edit it down to nothing. My opinion is that's what they did. The Klingons just were not needed and so they got cut. All that's really left is the dialogue about 47 ships. Which could be explained as simply by Nero passing through that region on his journey instead of escaping from them.

Anyway, as I said, it's rather moot. Since they are not an actual part of the final cut of the film they cannot be the least credible part of it.
__________________
'If the Apocalypse starts, beep me!' - Buffy Summers
'The sky's the limit.....' Jean-Luc Picard, 'All Good Things'


courtesy of Saquist

Last edited by kevin : 01-01-2010 at 09:03 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 01-01-2010, 08:49 AM
NCC-73515's Avatar
NCC-73515 NCC-73515 is offline
Fleet Admiral
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Heidelberg, Germany
Posts: 7,229
Default

I guess it can take more than 25 years for 23rd century Klingons (who don't have strong opinions on science) to find a ship cloaked with 24th Borg-Romulan technology (possibly even an interphase cloak)
__________________


"English! I thought I dreamed hearing it!"?
Khan, Space Seed (TOS)

Brought to you in living color by NCC.
-= first fan member =-

Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 01-01-2010, 10:55 AM
I-Am-Zim I-Am-Zim is offline
Vice Admiral
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: North Carolina, USA, Earth
Posts: 3,432
Default

And, once again, we don't know it was cloaked. Since we are only using what was actually seen in the movie, there is nothing in the movie to suggest that the Narada even had a cloaking device. Nor was there anything in the movie to suggest that the Narada was Borg-modified. In fact, Nero actually says to Pike, and I quote: "In my time, where I come from, this is a simple mining vessel." Not a "highly modified" mining vessel. A simple mining vessel. Had the deleted scenes with the Klingon interrogation been included, it would have given at least a little explanation for where the heck they were for 25 years. According to the movie, all they did was wait that whole time. Anyway, Kevin has a point. The more we try to explain this, the deeper the hole gets. If the movie is taken on its own merits, then that 25 year gap is a gigantic hole. The deleted scenes and Countdown comics can't be used as explanations since the were not part of the movie and none of that was seen on screen. Therefore, according to the casual moviegoer, that stuff never happened and is completely irrelevent to the movie. So lets just say that Nero and his cronies just tiptoed through the galactic tulips for 25 years until Spock came through the temporal causality/wormhole/black hole/thingie. There ya go.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 01-01-2010, 11:13 AM
chator's Avatar
chator chator is offline
Commander
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,261
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by I-Am-Zim View Post
If the movie is taken on its own merits, then that 25 year gap is a gigantic hole.
You mean, a gigantic plot hole. I now am beginning to better realize why they left out the deleted Klingon scenes, it ruins the credibility of the film, it asks the audience to use their imagination to believe too many things not seen, it creates more problems than it solves. I think the main reason for the twenty-five year wait was the added drama of having Kirk kill the man who killed his father. It makes Kirk appear more formidable than his father, if he could defeat the enemy his father couldn't. So the basic plot and theme of the movie is revenge, Nero wants revenge on Spock, Kirk wants revenge on Nero. Kinda like TWOK, Khan wants revenge on Kirk, Kirk wants revenge on Khan.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 01-01-2010, 11:14 AM
kevin's Avatar
kevin kevin is offline
Federation Councillor
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: East Kilbride, Glasgow, UK
Posts: 21,078
Default

Actually the 25 year gap is not in and of itself anything like a gigantic hole. Not until they try and put in a long-winded explanation like the Klingons.

What I was agreeing with was that the more they try to explain what doesn't strictly need to be explained in detail the more they sidetrack themselves down a road the film doesn't have to go down at all.

It's quite easy to take it that Nero and the ship simply found a quiet place to hide until he had calculated when Spock would come through. He can't do anything until Spock does because he won't have any Red Matter to deploy against Vulcan until Spock comes through the wormhole. So, he has little choice to wait after he realises (when Robau gives him the stardate 2233.04 - incidentally I believe it's his rage at this realisation that is why he kills Robau) when in time he is.

If he comes to the conclusion that travel through the Black Hole will result in exiting at a different point in time due to the mass of the object passing through it (which is a common enough sci-fi movie idea) then he can work out when Spock will come through because the Narada will have sensor scans of the Jellyfish's mass.

(How he knew where Spock would exit is a different matter, but perhaps in theory we could say that he would exit at the same point the Narada did and that's why he was making his way back through Klingon territory when they attacked and he destroyed their 47 ships near Rura Penthe - though that's just an idea I put together. Obviously nothing in the script covers it).

In that sense - which is straightforward enough to work out from the clues in the film - the 25 years spent hiding is easily enough explained. It's also more than massive enough a universe and Galaxy that even a 5 mile long ship could quite easily stay hidden from most eyes if it wanted to, so arguments to the contrary don't really hold great water IMO. In a sense, Zim's way of putting is not entirely wrong - but in fact it does have an understandable rationale behind it.

However, all mileage varies
__________________
'If the Apocalypse starts, beep me!' - Buffy Summers
'The sky's the limit.....' Jean-Luc Picard, 'All Good Things'


courtesy of Saquist

Last edited by kevin : 01-01-2010 at 11:20 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 01-01-2010, 11:30 AM
Captain Tom Coughlin's Avatar
Captain Tom Coughlin Captain Tom Coughlin is offline
Fleet Admiral
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: USS Meadowlands
Posts: 10,990
Default

Where Nero spent the missing 25 years is a mystery, but a mystery is not a plot hole.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 01-01-2010, 11:36 AM
Captain Tom Coughlin's Avatar
Captain Tom Coughlin Captain Tom Coughlin is offline
Fleet Admiral
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: USS Meadowlands
Posts: 10,990
Default

For me, Kirk's instant promotion is probably the least credible part of the film. The Supernova thing is a pretty big stretch too. It would have worked better if they said it was a threat to a few near by civilizations instead of threatening the entire galaxy.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 01-01-2010, 12:14 PM
FireDevlin's Avatar
FireDevlin FireDevlin is offline
Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 376
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Tom Coughlin View Post
For me, Kirk's instant promotion is probably the least credible part of the film. The Supernova thing is a pretty big stretch too. It would have worked better if they said it was a threat to a few near by civilizations instead of threatening the entire galaxy.
I'm with Captain Tom. Kirk's promotion from third year/fourth year cadet to Captain is insane. There was a better way IMHO to get a 32yo Kirk to Captain.

The other thing for me is the whole cadets report to ships thing. Were they just fourth year cadets? Why were there cadets in S.F. at the end when Nero gets to earth? Why was "the fleet" in another system, but six/seven ships with no crew hanging out in San Fancisco? I mean the WHOLE fleet?

Also, anyone notice Kirk's "sedative" lasted three minutes?
__________________
"I'll break out of this zoo somehow and get to you. Is your blood red like ours? I'm gonna find out. "-Captain Christopher Pike
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 01-01-2010, 12:41 PM
kevin's Avatar
kevin kevin is offline
Federation Councillor
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: East Kilbride, Glasgow, UK
Posts: 21,078
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FireDevlin View Post
I'm with Captain Tom. Kirk's promotion from third year/fourth year cadet to Captain is insane. There was a better way IMHO to get a 32yo Kirk to Captain.
I still see quite widely varying perspectives on this - it seems to be one of the more interesting things as a point of order re the new film.

Quote:
The other thing for me is the whole cadets report to ships thing. Were they just fourth year cadets? Why were there cadets in S.F. at the end when Nero gets to earth? Why was "the fleet" in another system, but six/seven ships with no crew hanging out in San Fancisco? I mean the WHOLE fleet?
Because historically in Trek the Enterprise is the only ship allowed to save the day - thus all others must be destroyed/unavailable!



Quote:
Also, anyone notice Kirk's "sedative" lasted three minutes?
Well, I noticed that it was about three minutes from when Chekov delivered his address to the ship and Kirk woke up until they arrived at Vulcan.

As to the obvious time cuts in the middle of that sequence - I'd guess his sedation probably lasted a longer (undetermined) amount of time prior to that.

__________________
'If the Apocalypse starts, beep me!' - Buffy Summers
'The sky's the limit.....' Jean-Luc Picard, 'All Good Things'


courtesy of Saquist
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 07:32 AM.


Forum theme courtesy of Mark Lambert
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2009 by Paramount Pictures. STAR TREK and all related
marks and logos are trademarks of CBS Studios Inc. All Rights Reserved.