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  #201  
Old 01-09-2010, 02:55 PM
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janeway72 janeway72 is offline
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I believe in God the Father Almighty,
Maker of heaven and earth:
And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord,
Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
Born of the Virgin Mary,
Suffered under Pontius Pilate,
Was crucified, dead, and buried:
He descended into hell;
The third day he rose again from the dead;
He ascended into heaven,
And sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost;
The holy catholic Church;
The Communion of Saints;
The Forgiveness of sins;
The Resurrection of the body,
And the Life everlasting.
Amen.

That's what I believe and I am making absolutely no apologies for it.

"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.""
1 Corinthians 1:18-19

The Church is full of flawed and sinful people. It would never be perfect and it has probably changed the message of Jesus through the ages. The newest parts of the Bible are 1900 years old. Christians who take the whole thing literally are always going to run into trouble. It is for each Christian to work out what the Bible means and to strive to live within the spirit of the laws of God. The Bible doesn't tell people whether they can download internet porn or not as internet porn didn't exist 1900 years ago.

And I would be willing to bet money that Mother Teresa's actions were mainly to do with her love for God and a small part to make sure she didn't have to spend too much time in purgatory.

As for Richard Dawkins, I'm sorry I don't keep a note of the name of every TV program I watch and I may have slightly paraphrased the word idiot but I'm afraid that was the gist of his view. I'll see if I can find my copy of Alistair McGrath's book that will at least have some quotes from Dawkins writings. However, his book the God Delusion is self explanatory - Those who have faith are deluded. I take offense at Dawkins saying that nearly 5 billion people in the world, including myself are deluded.
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  #202  
Old 01-09-2010, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janeway72 View Post
I believe in God the Father Almighty,
Maker of heaven and earth:
And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord,
Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
Born of the Virgin Mary,
Suffered under Pontius Pilate,
Was crucified, dead, and buried:
He descended into hell;
The third day he rose again from the dead;
He ascended into heaven,
And sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost;
The holy catholic Church;
The Communion of Saints;
The Forgiveness of sins;
The Resurrection of the body,
And the Life everlasting.
Amen.

That's what I believe and I am making absolutely no apologies for it.

"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.""
1 Corinthians 1:18-19

The Church is full of flawed and sinful people. It would never be perfect and it has probably changed the message of Jesus through the ages. The newest parts of the Bible are 1900 years old. Christians who take the whole thing literally are always going to run into trouble. It is for each Christian to work out what the Bible means and to strive to live within the spirit of the laws of God. The Bible doesn't tell people whether they can download internet porn or not as internet porn didn't exist 1900 years ago.

And I would be willing to bet money that Mother Teresa's actions were mainly to do with her love for God and a small part to make sure she didn't have to spend too much time in purgatory.

As for Richard Dawkins, I'm sorry I don't keep a note of the name of every TV program I watch and I may have slightly paraphrased the word idiot but I'm afraid that was the gist of his view. I'll see if I can find my copy of Alistair McGrath's book that will at least have some quotes from Dawkins writings. However, his book the God Delusion is self explanatory - Those who have faith are deluded. I take offense at Dawkins saying that nearly 5 billion people in the world, including myself are deluded.
You are free to believe what you wish and I never said you needed to apologize for it did I? I just find it interesting that you think it's ok to tell nonreligious people they are going to Hell because if they don't believe in Hell they shouldn't be offended. You may find this interesting about Mother Teresa. You can't judge a book by it's title alone, have you read the God Delusion?
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  #203  
Old 01-09-2010, 03:55 PM
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janeway72 janeway72 is offline
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No I haven't read the book. I have no wish to pay £10 towards the Richard Dawkins fund and I don't have time to go to the library or read a book I am not interested in. I have read Alister McGrath's which gives you the general gist of Dawkins viewpoints.

I don't tell people they are going to hell because they don't believe in Jesus as the saviour. I believe it to a certain extent though I am not fully convinced that there isn't some get out clause for those who haven't heard the gospel. But that's the walk of faith. Life is tough and it's hard to see pictures of street children in Calcutta (never mind what it must be like to live among it) and still be certain of God's existence and everyone's faith falters at times. We have to find our own way through it and come out the other side with more faith or with a change in belief.

I guess I'll never understand why someone would be offended in the idea of going to hell if they don't believe in it, but that must just be me
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  #204  
Old 01-09-2010, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by janeway72 View Post
No I haven't read the book. I have no wish to pay £10 towards the Richard Dawkins fund and I don't have time to go to the library or read a book I am not interested in. I have read Alister McGrath's which gives you the general gist of Dawkins viewpoints.
I personally don't like to get my information from a secondary source especially when that secondary source's view point is on the other side of the spectrum of the original writers. I find things tend to get twisted in the translation to suit the secondary writers point of view. I would read both points of view so I know what each writer is saying, maybe that's just me.

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Originally Posted by janeway72 View Post
I don't tell people they are going to hell because they don't believe in Jesus as the saviour. I believe it to a certain extent though I am not fully convinced that there isn't some get out clause for those who haven't heard the gospel. But that's the walk of faith. I guess I'll never understand why someone would be offended in the idea of going to hell if they don't believe in it, but that must just be me
Well in my opinion by that twisted logic I don't think you should be offended by Dawkins allegedly saying that people that believe in God are delusional but in reality I believe both are equally offensive to each respective party and two wrongs don't make a right. I also find it interesting when someone questions religion people of faith seem to take offence. Why is it that religion can't be questioned? When did religion get this special status?
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  #206  
Old 01-09-2010, 04:30 PM
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I am not interested in reading a book with mirror-creationist arguments. Not in the least. Life is too short for foolery and bad books.
And that's your choice but then it's hard to make judgements on one or the other when you don't know both sides of the argument.
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  #207  
Old 01-09-2010, 04:32 PM
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I don't have a problem with people questioning religion but I object to the religion being the scapegoat for all the ills of the world. Religion is not the problem. People who do things in the name of the religion is a problem.

I have no problem with Dawkins not believing in God. He can believe what he likes but if belief in God is a delusion because God can't be proved, then belief in the non-existence of God is also a delusion because it can't be proved either. So I go back to my assertion that he either defeats his own argument or he is calling himself delusional. He is also calling Einstein, Newton and Galileo delusional who all believed in God. The only truly logical and scientific view on God can be agnosticism.

Religion is simply the attempts of a culture to understand the big questions in life. Where did I come from, how did the world come about, why do people suffer, what happens when I die? That is, in some ways what science is trying to do, it is just going a different way to get to the same end.
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  #208  
Old 01-09-2010, 04:33 PM
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And that's your choice but then it's hard to make judgements on one or the other when you don't know both sides of the argument.
It is very easy to make judgements about creationists and folks like Dawkins without knowing detailed arguments. They are fools and not aware of the limits of religion resp. science.
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  #209  
Old 01-09-2010, 04:37 PM
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And that's your choice but then it's hard to make judgements on one or the other when you don't know both sides of the argument.
We make judgements all the time on things that we have not read or understood fully. I watch the news and make a judgement on it. I watch the edited highlights from the Big Brother House and make judgements. Many countries in the EU had a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. The Lisbon treaty is a huge document that half the politicians have not read but people were asked to give their opinion on this Treaty and agree to it or disagree to it becoming part of their law.
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