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  #191  
Old 01-08-2010, 12:52 PM
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Why do religious people believe certain people go to hell? Is it not because they are bad, immoral people? You can't see how someone may take offence to being called immoral?
Actually even according to the bible this behaviour is wrong .
A Christian mustn't judge other people.
All he can do is trying to be a good example and hoping that others follow him. But when he judges others he soars above them, which he isn't allowed to do. Love your neighbour, love your enemy, blessed are the merciful, blessed are the meek...
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  #192  
Old 01-08-2010, 02:22 PM
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I actually believe in idiots, Dawkins presumably doesn't believe in hell. You misunderstand the Christian understanding of Heaven and Hell. Heaven means to be with God, and Hell means to be not in the presence of God. The Bible says that "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life." It has nothing to do with being moral or immoral. It has to do with faith. However, faith should bring about a change in lifestyle and therefore you should live a moral life if you have faith. (That's not to say those without faith don;t live moral lives). Christians believe you need faith to go to heaven. But hell is not a place of fire and brimstone. It may very well just mean that you cease to exist.

I would probably also agree with Dawkins on some points if he hadn't got my back up by calling me an idiot because I have faith in something I can't prove.

I have enjoyed our discussion too. I like to debate my faith with people of all faiths and none and to some extent I do it for a living. It's more fulfilling with adults though
Ok. If your going to split hairs then Christianity means followers of Christ so you have to believe in Jesus in order to get to Heaven and God just like the quote you posted says "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life." I guess the Muslims, Jews etc. are just as screwed as the atheists. Now I have to ask you where did you read or see Dawkins call people of faith idiots? Please post a link to the quote or video where he says this.
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  #193  
Old 01-08-2010, 03:01 PM
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I saw it on a TV programme that he did on British TV. It was a while ago and I can't remember the name of it. It was a set of 3 programmes he did.

Your complaint was that I was suggesting that Dawkins won't get to heaven for being an immoral person. I have no idea whether Dawkins is moral or immoral. He could be the nicest person in the world but I have no idea since I have never met the man. I wasn;t splitting hairs. SO if you take the Bible literally, then yes, people of every other religion are just as screwed as atheists. However there is a whole range of viewpoints on what the Bible actually means. There are 66 books in it, there is quite a bit of contradiction and that is why people spend their lives trying to understand it. Personally I think that God is all powerful and can choose to take who he wants into heaven and he isn't bound by the rules of any religion
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  #194  
Old 01-08-2010, 03:16 PM
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Humans have different religions, different confessions, God (if he exists) doesn't.
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  #195  
Old 01-08-2010, 03:32 PM
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Humans have different religions, different confessions, God (if he exists) doesn't.
That was pretty much what I was trying to get at but you explained it better than me
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  #196  
Old 01-09-2010, 07:35 AM
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I saw it on a TV programme that he did on British TV. It was a while ago and I can't remember the name of it. It was a set of 3 programmes he did.
Are you telling me I have to take your claim on faith? I've seen many of Dawkins TV programs and I can't remember him saying "All religious people are idiots." I maybe wrong but in this case the borden of proof lies on you.

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Your complaint was that I was suggesting that Dawkins won't get to heaven for being an immoral person. I have no idea whether Dawkins is moral or immoral. He could be the nicest person in the world but I have no idea since I have never met the man.
Actually you have misunderstood me, I wasn't making a compliant. I was stating that I can understand why an atheist or any other nonreligious person could be offended by a religious person telling them they are going to Hell because they don't believe in God just as you are offended by Dawkins supposedly calling all religious people idiots. In my opinion those are both insults regardless if a person believes in Hell or not the meaning behind why they are going there is implied but you seem to think it is ok to tell a nonreligious person they are going to Hell because they don't believe in it so they shouldn't be offended.

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I wasn;t splitting hairs. SO if you take the Bible literally, then yes, people of every other religion are just as screwed as atheists. However there is a whole range of viewpoints on what the Bible actually means. There are 66 books in it, there is quite a bit of contradiction and that is why people spend their lives trying to understand it.
Well you told me:
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Originally Posted by janeway72 View Post
You misunderstand the Christian understanding of Heaven and Hell. Heaven means to be with God, and Hell means to be not in the presence of God. The Bible says that "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life." It has nothing to do with being moral or immoral. It has to do with faith.
So why is my interpretation of Hell incorrect and yours is correct if the Bible is left open to interpretation?

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Personally I think that God is all powerful and can choose to take who he wants into heaven and he isn't bound by the rules of any religion
Well I'm glad that you believe in a God that is more merciful then the one in the book but the whole Christian faith is founded on the belief that Christ is the saviour and if you don't believe in him you aren't getting in to Heaven.
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  #197  
Old 01-09-2010, 08:01 AM
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Actually the only constant among all Christian variations is the belief that Jesus is the Christ, the Messia, the saviour. I didn't have anything to do with heaven and hell while I was a Christian and, no disrespect to folks who believe in it implied, I think it is a Middle Age relict.
I doubt that Mother Teresa did what she did because of the "heaven-and-hell incentive system" and the Christians I know personally don't do whatever nice things they do out of the fear of hell or the hope for heaven either.
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  #198  
Old 01-09-2010, 08:44 AM
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Actually the only constant among all Christian variations is the belief that Jesus is the Christ, the Messia, the saviour. I didn't have anything to do with heaven and hell
"Most denominations teach that Jesus will return to judge all humans, living and dead, and grant eternal life to his followers. He is considered the model of a virtuous life, and both the revealer and physical incarnation of God." Am I missing something? Doesn't that mean that if I follow Jesus and his teaches he will come Judgment Day, judge me and if I pass I get eternal life aka entrance to Heaven?

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while I was a Christian and, no disrespect to folks who believe in it implied, I think it is a Middle Age relict.
I doubt that Mother Teresa did what she did because of the "heaven-and-hell incentive system" and the Christians I know personally don't do whatever nice things they do out of the fear of hell or the hope for heaven either.
I was also raised Christian and I question the motives behind anyones good deeds if they're doing them out of fear.
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  #199  
Old 01-09-2010, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Enterprise Captain View Post
"Most denominations teach that Jesus will return to judge all humans, living and dead, and grant eternal life to his followers. He is considered the model of a virtuous life, and both the revealer and physical incarnation of God." Am I missing something? Doesn't that mean that if I follow Jesus and his teaches he will come Judgment Day, judge me and if I pass I get eternal life aka entrance to Heaven?
I am not sure if the bible is really precise enough to be able to say "If you do X then you will get to heaven".

It's also not really clear if by the belief in Jesus is meant the human being that was called Jesus or the ideas and ideals Jesus stood for.
Just remember the analogy in which Jesus found a Samaritan more worthy and righteous than all the strictly religious scribes.

And when it comes to the Book of Revelation I think some Jews will be rescued as well ^^

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I was also raised Christian and I question the motives behind anyones good deeds if they're doing them out of fear.
I think so too.
It is sad that the Church turned a religion that could be interpreted in a very life-affirming way ("The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:20) into a giant instrument of fear.
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And if tyrants take me, And throw me in prison, My thoughts will burst free, Like blossoms in season.
Foundations will crumble, The structure will tumble, And free men will cry:
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Last edited by TheTrekkie : 01-09-2010 at 10:38 AM.
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  #200  
Old 01-09-2010, 02:22 PM
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I am not sure if the bible is really precise enough to be able to say "If you do X then you will get to heaven".

It's also not really clear if by the belief in Jesus is meant the human being that was called Jesus or the ideas and ideals Jesus stood for.
Just remember the analogy in which Jesus found a Samaritan more worthy and righteous than all the strictly religious scribes.

And when it comes to the Book of Revelation I think some Jews will be rescued as well ^^
I thought the New Testament was pretty clear that if you follow Jesus's teachings about how to live your life when the Judgment Day comes and you pass his judgment he will grant you eternal life. If that is not clear and the Bible gives you absolutely no guidelines how to live your life how is any of it relevant? Either way I find interesting that Jesus who apparently loves us all equally will still judge each of us on whether we are worthy of eternal life or not which implies that we aren't all equal. If Revelation is correct then I guess that's good that "some" Jews will be saved to bad they all can't be. I guess the Muslims and atheists are still screwed though.

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It is sad that the Church turned a religion that could be interpreted in a very life-affirming way ("The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:20) into a giant instrument of fear.
This is exactly why I question the church and how it teaches religion to people.
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