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  #161  
Old 01-08-2010, 06:58 AM
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Obviously people cause the problems but they also created religion and they also teach it. It's hard to question things when you're told either you have faith or you don't. The Bible is filled with contradictions to start out with. If we look to science for the origins of the universe then Genesis appears to be fiction. Beyond that I never understood how people can believe the Pope has some sort of link to God. He is some dude that gets voted in to power by a bunch of other dudes in the Vatican not unlike any other politician except it would be like the Senate voting for the President not the people so why is he special? The guy has a lot of influence over the followers of the Catholic faith. His church takes the stance that condoms should not be used that abstinence is the best solution. This is the same church that doesn't allow their preachers to get married and then we keep hearing about another Catholic priest molesting another child. I'm no scientist but perhaps forcing someone in to abstinence and these children being molested maybe linked? I'm a soccer fan and I remember during Ramadan two of the Muslim players on my home team that I support Toronto FC would not drink water until after sun down because they were fasting. Now I'm sorry but no doctor would tell those two "It's a good idea for you to go out and play a game of soccer for 90 minutes and not hydrate" but if the coach would not allow them to play in the game and forced them to sit on the bench he would be the asshole. So he let them play but limited their playing time. I personally think to many religious people blindly follow what they are taught and don't question it because it's a matter of faith, you either believe or you don't and if you don't you're going to hell. I personally think their are a lot of problems with religion and the God described in the Bible has many flaws. If there is a God I hope he/she/it is a lot more reasonable then the one in the book. I also wish more religious people would listen to what Father Coyne's has to say because I think the guy has the right balance of faith and reason.
You learn little about ordinary religious folks by looking at the dogmas of the respective religious organization. I have grown up in a Catholic family, my dad even is a religious teacher ... but no one took all parts of the bible literally or cared about what an old man in Rome considers to be right or wrong.

So yeah, feel free to believe that all religious people are dumb sheeps who do anything said by their religious leaders or written in their holy texts, it has little to do with reality though.
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  #162  
Old 01-08-2010, 08:32 AM
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You learn little about ordinary religious folks by looking at the dogmas of the respective religious organization. I have grown up in a Catholic family, my dad even is a religious teacher ... but no one took all parts of the bible literally or cared about what an old man in Rome considers to be right or wrong.

So yeah, feel free to believe that all religious people are dumb sheeps who do anything said by their religious leaders or written in their holy texts, it has little to do with reality though.
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  #163  
Old 01-08-2010, 08:37 AM
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You learn little about ordinary religious folks by looking at the dogmas of the respective religious organization. I have grown up in a Catholic family, my dad even is a religious teacher ... but no one took all parts of the bible literally or cared about what an old man in Rome considers to be right or wrong.

So yeah, feel free to believe that all religious people are dumb sheeps who do anything said by their religious leaders or written in their holy texts, it has little to do with reality though.
Now you are telling me what I believe? Did I say all religious people are dumb sheep? I find it interesting when someone questions religion they become the bad guy. They're many people out there that are religious people and they're decent folks I don't dispute that. They're are also some things about religion and certain religious people that really bother me. I was raised in the Christian faith, my father is Catholic my mother is Reformed Christian. I went to church every Sunday until I was about 16, I was Baptized and Confirmed. My God Mother is the daughter of the minster at the church I attended which is a Reformed Christian church which allows ministers to get married and have a family. I have meet many "normal" religious people in my life time but I still find it scary when the Catholic Church says to the Catholic people of Africa where AIDS is a huge problem that abstinence is the solution to their problem not using condoms because the Catholic dogma dictates this. I also find the growing Evangelical movement in North America pretty scary as well. Anyway I'm not here to tell anyone that God exists or not and I never said what you claim I believe I'm stating some questions I have about religion and certain practices they teach and my opinion on these things.
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  #164  
Old 01-08-2010, 08:47 AM
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Now you are telling me what I believe? Did I say all religious people are dumb sheep? I find it interesting when someone questions religion they become the bad guy. They're many people out there that are religious people and they're decent folks I don't dispute that. They're are also some things about religion and certain religious people that really bother me. I was raised in the Christian faith, my father is Catholic my mother is Reformed Christian. I went to church every Sunday until I was about 16, I was Baptized and Confirmed. My God Mother is the daughter of the minster at the church I attended which is a Reformed Christian church which allows ministers to get married and have a family. I have meet many "normal" religious people in my life time but I still find it scary when the Catholic Church says to the Catholic people of Africa where AIDS is a huge problem that abstinence is the solution to their problem not using condoms because the Catholic dogma dictates this. I also find the growing Evangelical movement in North America pretty scary as well. Anyway I'm not here to tell anyone that God exists or not and I never said what you claim I believe I'm stating some questions I have about religion and certain practices they teach and my opinion on these things.
Indeed. It is the dogmas that are unquestionably subscribed to by the blindly adherent where religion gets a bad name.

There's faith (doing what feels right based on your beliefs and values) and blind aderence (doing what seems right jus' coz' sumone told you so).

I rather like the notion passed along in the movie "Dogma".

"I don't believe, but I have a pretty good idea."
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  #165  
Old 01-08-2010, 09:02 AM
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I don't know any Catholic who doesn't use contraceptives (unless they wanna get a child). Of course all the sexual repressed stuff like celibacy and forbidding condoms is nonsense and even potentially dangerous if the people in AIDS infected countries are actually influenced by messages from Rome (a moderate Catholic would probably say something like 'use condoms and be monogamous') ... but it is just the view upon the organization, not the believers of a specific incarnation of a specific religion.
Ratzinger was actually a quite open-minded fellow until they brought him to Rome, promoted him to Cardinal and made him one of them. He didn't know the power of the Dark Side before. (sorry for the un-PC joke, no offense to anyone intended)



It's the undemocratic power system, not the religion which is bad.

Last edited by horatio : 01-08-2010 at 09:08 AM.
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  #166  
Old 01-08-2010, 09:10 AM
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It's the undemocratic power system, not the religion which is bad.
Ok. Where do these men in the Vatican get their power from?
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  #167  
Old 01-08-2010, 09:15 AM
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Obviously people cause the problems but they also created religion and they also teach it. It's hard to question things when you're told either you have faith or you don't. The Bible is filled with contradictions to start out with. If we look to science for the origins of the universe then Genesis appears to be fiction. Beyond that I never understood how people can believe the Pope has some sort of link to God. He is some dude that gets voted in to power by a bunch of other dudes in the Vatican not unlike any other politician except it would be like the Senate voting for the President not the people so why is he special? The guy has a lot of influence over the followers of the Catholic faith. His church takes the stance that condoms should not be used that abstinence is the best solution. This is the same church that doesn't allow their preachers to get married and then we keep hearing about another Catholic priest molesting another child. I'm no scientist but perhaps forcing someone in to abstinence and these children being molested maybe linked? I'm a soccer fan and I remember during Ramadan two of the Muslim players on my home team that I support Toronto FC would not drink water until after sun down because they were fasting. Now I'm sorry but no doctor would tell those two "It's a good idea for you to go out and play a game of soccer for 90 minutes and not hydrate" but if the coach would not allow them to play in the game and forced them to sit on the bench he would be the asshole. So he let them play but limited their playing time. I personally think to many religious people blindly follow what they are taught and don't question it because it's a matter of faith, you either believe or you don't and if you don't you're going to hell. I personally think their are a lot of problems with religion and the God described in the Bible has many flaws. If there is a God I hope he/she/it is a lot more reasonable then the one in the book. I also wish more religious people would listen to what Father Coyne's has to say because I think the guy has the right balance of faith and reason.
Richard Dawkins is a man of faith. He has faith in the idea that God does not exist. therefore his reasoning is flawed.

If the guys on the Toronto football team don't want to drink water because they believe it is the will of Allah for them to resist the temptations of eating and drinking during their holy month, I don;t really see why it is a problem. I worked in a school with a large number of Asian kids. During Ramadan, some classrooms were opened up for them at lunchtime so they could pray and also so they didn't have to watch everyone eating their lunch. I had the utmost respect for those kids who managed it. Why is following your faith a bad thing if it is what you believe and is not harming anyone. Not eating during the hours of sunlight is not harmful to a healthy adult but there are restrictions within Islam. People excused from fasting are pregnant women, the sick, travellers, Children under 12 (I think it's 12), the elderly - (I am sure there is another group but I can'e remember ).

Genesis is an analogy. Of course light comes first which is the fastest moving thing in the universe... funny that. It explains the birth of the universe in terms that people 4000 years ago could understand. I doubt they would have understood string theory.

For most religious people it is a matter of faith and your choice is to believe it or not. And yes, for many religions, if you don't believe it then you are going to hell. I don't understand the problem most atheists have with that statement. If you don't believe in God, you presumably don't believe in hell so why would you find the idea offensive. I don't believe in Santa so it doesn't bother me that some people think that he won't leave you anything at Christmas if you are not good.

If you know reasonable and normal religious people, you will find that most of us use our holy books as guides, especially when it comes to morality. I have faith that Jesus was the messiah and that he died to take the punishment for my sins. I also believe that gay people should be allowed to marry, abortion should be an option in some circumstances, women and men should have equal rights and that Obama is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

As for the paedophile priests. Being a paedophile has nothing to do with abstinence. Plenty of people practice abstinence and don't abuse children and there are plenty of paedophiles who are getting sex elsewhere. If priests were just struggling with abstinence and couldn't manage it, they would just go out and get laid with a person who was old enough to consent.

Just because there are people who take it to the extreme and there are some horrible people who subscribe to various religions, doesn't negate the possibility that God exists.
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  #168  
Old 01-08-2010, 09:19 AM
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I don't know any Catholic who doesn't use contraceptives (unless they wanna get a child). Of course all the sexual repressed stuff like celibacy and forbidding condoms is nonsense and even potentially dangerous if the people in AIDS infected countries are actually influenced by messages from Rome (a moderate Catholic would probably say something like 'use condoms and be monogamous') ... but it is just the view upon the organization, not the believers of a specific incarnation of a specific religion.
Ratzinger was actually a quite open-minded fellow until they brought him to Rome, promoted him to Cardinal and made him one of them. He didn't know the power of the Dark Side before. (sorry for the un-PC joke, no offense to anyone intended)
Can I just point out that the best way to prevent the spread of AIDS actually is abstinence. I don't agree with the stance of the Catholic Church with regards to condoms. They should be freely available and used properly in Africa, however the Catholic Church does have a point. Abstinence is also the best way to prevent pregnancy and the spread of STIs
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  #170  
Old 01-08-2010, 09:23 AM
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Can I just point out that the best way to prevent the spread of AIDS actually is abstinence. I don't agree with the stance of the Catholic Church with regards to condoms. They should be freely available and used properly in Africa, however the Catholic Church does have a point. Abstinence is also the best way to prevent pregnancy and the spread of STIs
That's the best way to prevent AIDS for asexual people or people with a weak libido, but what about the other folks? For them, condoms are still the method to prevent AIDS and STDs.
The second-best is something which interestingly resonates with Christian sexuality moral: monogamy and faithfulness (and perhaps in addition at least an AIDS test before you start to have intercourse without condoms).
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