[Andrew86]

Originally Posted by Saquist

Sex is a behavior. There is no logical dispute to this.

And I haven't attempted to nor do I intend to offer one. I'm not asking for sex to be depicted in the movie..? Did you think I was?

Orientation means position...which implies choice.

In this case orientation means direction. It describes the gender towards which a person's sexual attention is directed. It does not imply choice. It simply describes a state of being.

Attraction is a stimulus response which goes to behavior.

Yep, an innate response to external stimuli. You do not chose innate responses.

And no i can not agree that historicaly they have been viewed as lesser humans.
I think you are exagerating the issue.

What? Homosexuality has been a crime for the vast magority of recorded history. The penalty has very often been death. Homosexuals have been seen as evil perverts for the vast majority of recorded history. I don't know what semantic game you are playing in your mind to suggest that homosexuals have not been seen as lesser humans...

Perversion: an aberrant sexual practice that is preferred to normal intercourse

Okay.. thanks for that... (...?)

[Botany Bay]

Saquist, I think your differentiation between prejudicies towards race and prejudicies toward sexual orientation are somewhat forced.

You say sexual orientation is a behaviour while race is a determination.

Blacks where not seen as lower then the white men by racists for their looks, but for the behaviour that racists did think they show: Raping women, behaving uncivilized, being renitent against education, etc. The skin collor was made the sign for the character.
When blacks behaved different then the clishee it was assumed they would just hide their real character and sooner or later the "*****" in them would show off.

The same game was played with gender. Women where (and to a huge part still are) seen as inferior not for the look of their bodies, but for the bahavior sexism thought them to inherit: Hysteria, nervousness, emotional instability, weakness.
A strong women was seen as bahaving against her nature and therefor she would sooner or later fail as a driver, a leader, etc.

Now, whith gays the game is different in the manner, that you can not see wether one is gay or not, but the game remains the same:
Gays are said to be perverted, weak, illoyal, desperate and obsessed with hedonistic sexual pleasures.
No matter how much they try to hide it, sooner or later this shows off again, so far the logic of intollerant sexism.

The point is that all this ways of seeing people is: Proclaim certain people to be inferior no matter how hard they try to hide it. By that you determine their place in society.

When gays where put in prison, it wasnt for their actual behaviour, but for the behaviour they where thought to show sooner or later. No judge asked a gay how respectfull he/she behaves or wether the homosexual relationship was founded on love or what the gay is working with and what life he/she leades. All the judges cared for was: Gay is gay, period.
For the same reason the Third Reich send them into the gaschamber.

When nowaydays conservatives say to be gay is a behaviour, they mean, become heterosexual, while at the same time its thought thats impossible anyway, because to be gay is seen as a perversion. Who is perverted by free will? No one. In that worldview the gay is gay and stays gay. To demand the gay to stop being gay is pure zynism.

So, if to be gay is something one could choose, then it wouldnt be a perversion. But why to stop being gay then anyway?

Because most conservatives still see it as a crime at least. Eventhough they cant really explain what harm homosexuality does to society.
And thats why the whole thing is very equal to racism: You act as if someone is inferior and a thread, while you can not explain why. All the discrimination is therefore based on is the prejudicy.

[RedShirtWalking]

Originally Posted by Botany Bay

Because most conservatives still see it as a crime at least. Eventhough they cant really explain what harm homosexuality does to society. And thats why the whole thing is very equal to racism: You act as if someone is inferior and a thread, while you can not explain why. All the discrimination is therefore based on is the prejudicy.

Now, come on...that's not fair, Botany Bay.

Most conservatives don't see it as a crime. Most Muslims see it as a crime; most right-wingers (what most people seem to like to call the "Religious Right") see it as an immoral act. There's a HUGE difference.

A lot of rank-and-file conservatives don't view it that way, thanks. That's an unfair characterization (and, as someone who runs a conservative political blog and talks to a lot of people, I think I'm pretty safe in saying that).

[jerhanner]

And for Pete's sake, please tell me that no one hear thinks that people choose to be gay! It's all in our genes. That's what gets my goat when people start calling homosexuality immoral. God made DNA, DNA determines sexual orientation, so is God immoral?

[Enterprise Captain]

Originally Posted by RedShirtWalking

Now, come on...that's not fair, Botany Bay.

Most conservatives don't see it as a crime. Most Muslims see it as a crime; most right-wingers (what most people seem to like to call the "Religious Right") see it as an immoral act. There's a HUGE difference.

A lot of rank-and-file conservatives don't view it that way, thanks. That's an unfair characterization (and, as someone who runs a conservative political blog and talks to a lot of people, I think I'm pretty safe in saying that).

You maybe right but pointing the finger at another group wasn't the best idea. How many Muslims have you spoken to about this issue?

[Enterprise Captain]

Originally Posted by jerhanner

And for Pete's sake, please tell me that no one hear thinks that people choose to be gay! It's all in our genes. That's what gets my goat when people start calling homosexuality immoral. God made DNA, DNA determines sexual orientation, so is God immoral?

Either way, even if it is a choice who is to say one persons choice is more or less immoral then another persons choice? As for God I personally love one of Gene Roddenberry's quotes on the subject: "We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes."

[Zardoz]

I see we are a long way from the open minded society that Star Trek portrays.

We should all remeber IDIC (Infintie Diversity In Infinte Combinatons).

I would hope by the 23rd century humans (and any other folks we encounter along the way) are past seeing things and issues as "bad" or "immoral."

It's easy to point figner and assign blame of things we do not understand, it's hard, very hard to try and understand them and accept them.

No one says approve, but acceptance of people and being no matter how diffrent they may be from our experience or understanding.

Which one of you will be the first to reach out YOUR hand, no matter what the diffrences may be, and say, "I accept you as you are in freindship."

Isn't that what Star Trek has been saying for over 40 years?

[RedShirtWalking]

Originally Posted by Enterprise Captain

You maybe right but pointing the finger at another group wasn't the best idea. How many Muslims have you spoken to about this issue?

Admittedly, only a couple. However, according to Islamic law, homosexuality is forbidden and--in places like Iran and Saudi Arabia--the punishment is death.

[RedShirtWalking]

Originally Posted by Zardoz

I see we are a long way from the open minded society that Star Trek portrays.

We should all remeber IDIC (Infintie Diversity In Infinte Combinatons).

I would hope by the 23rd century humans (and any other folks we encounter along the way) are past seeing things and issues as "bad" or "immoral."

It's easy to point figner and assign blame of things we do not understand, it's hard, very hard to try and understand them and accept them.

No one says approve, but acceptance of people and being no matter how diffrent they may be from our experience or understanding.

Which one of you will be the first to reach out YOUR hand, no matter what the diffrences may be, and say, "I accept you as you are in freindship."

Isn't that what Star Trek has been saying for over 40 years?

I couldn't agree more.

[Zardoz]

We need to look past our experiences and upbringings.

You don't have to agree with someone to be their freind, or to work hand in hand with them.

Accept them and let them be them, they in turn will let you be you.

If we don't start accepting each other and embracing our diffrences and gathering strength from our diffrences, then we as a species are doomed.