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  #11  
Old 12-21-2009, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by chator View Post
I realize this isn't a Star Wars forum, and maybe i'll go there to pose this question, but i also do realize we have Star Wars fans here, so i will go ahead and post this question. I was just thinking about how in the Old Star Wars trilogy the good guys were the rebels, or sepratists, and the bad guys were operatives for the Empire. In New Wars, the good guys are for the Republic, which we know becomes the Empire, and the bad guys are the sepratists, or rebels. So good and bad seems, at first, to be defined by political philosophy of government, but then, a role reversal takes place, so it cann't be this. The good are the Jedi, or those that adhere to the good side of the Force, and the bad those that are members of the Sith order, or who adhere to the dark side of the Force. So is Lucas completely a relativist when it comes to political commentary in Wars? More interested in looking to metaphysics for definitions of good vs. evil, and how an individual's actions move them closer to one side or the other? Or has Lucas role reversed himself? Changed his political outlook, and reflected that in his changed politics in the New Star Wars?
Being a rebel, seperatist, terrorist or what other name one might come up with is not per se good or bad, virtually every democratic movement in history could be called like that.
Lucas in not a relativist in any way, in fact he is crystal clear. The good guys are the one who fight for democracy.
The senators who protest against Palpatine's accumulation of power are the very people who start the rebellion. As TheTrekkie has pointed out, Palpatine's trick is to shatter the people's trust in democracy, to make them yearn for a powerful man at the top who will "set things right". You can see this best in Padme and Anakin's few talks about democracy and I am pretty sure that everyone of us has had a similar talk with someone who was disappointed in certain public institutions.
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  #12  
Old 12-21-2009, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by martok2112 View Post
As Papa Palptatine once said to young Anakin:

"Good is a point of view."

Contrast this with our own real-world.

Just focusing on Europe in WW II, Germany was the bad guys, Russia was the good guys (to the general world view, militarily and politically).

During the Cold War, East Germany and Russia (to the democratic world's P.O.V.) were the bad guys, while the U.S. and freedom loving nations of the world were good guys.
(militarily and politically)

In today's climate, Muslim terrorists are the bad guys, and almost everyone else is the good guy. (at least politically, and most militarily)

This is all a relative point of view. It's ideology.

Because to those whom we view(ed) as bad guys, in their own world view, what they are/were doing is righteous.
I agree in general and as German I am very glad that the US protected West Europe from Stalin's grip, but there have been questionable actions like the support of authoritarian regimes (e.g. Papadopoulos in Greece or Pinochet in Chile) in the Cold War. Fighting fire with fire is not the wisest path.

About Muslim terrorists, there is a big difference between the mass murders of 9/11, London or Madrid, terrorist attacks in a territorial conflict like in Israel or Putin's war against "Chechen Muslim terrorists". The difference between criminals, quasi-soldiers in a war and victims of Neo-Russia.
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  #13  
Old 12-21-2009, 10:29 PM
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Say what you want about the Empire, but it did appear to bring order out of chaos. I agree, it was an illusion of order from the disarray that was set in flux by Palpatine, but I think the story cautions us all not to eagerly make a "saviour" of someone who promises order and "change" from what was previously conceived of as bad, because there just may be an ulterior motive. Hmmm... sound familiar? (OK, that's as far as I'll go in here).
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  #14  
Old 12-21-2009, 10:39 PM
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When the Germans elected Hitler as chancellor I'm sure they saw him as a savior that would bring the country out from the chaos and ruin.

And yes... lets not turn this into contemporary politics.
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  #15  
Old 12-22-2009, 12:15 AM
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Originally Posted by vuedoc View Post
Say what you want about the Empire, but it did appear to bring order out of chaos. I agree, it was an illusion of order from the disarray that was set in flux by Palpatine, but I think the story cautions us all not to eagerly make a "saviour" of someone who promises order and "change" from what was previously conceived of as bad, because there just may be an ulterior motive. Hmmm... sound familiar? (OK, that's as far as I'll go in here).
There was no chaos, just some bureaucracy and corruption issues. Palpatine created the chaos or rather the civil war himself.
There are rare circumstances in which fascist order is better than chaos, e.g. when a transition from one from of government to another happens. Germany 1945 is a nice example for how it is supposed to work (OK, the usual ugly war atrocities stuff like mass rape etc. still happened, but that's what wars are and how soldiers behave), Iraq 2003 a not so nice example for utter failure to maintain any form of order after the overthrow.

Palpatine = Obama ? I am not a fan of that fellow, too many lukewarm attempts in several areas, but at least he improves transparency whereas the fellow before him went two steps towards a police state. Sounds more like Palpatine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel View Post
When the Germans elected Hitler as chancellor I'm sure they saw him as a savior that would bring the country out from the chaos and ruin.
Yep, the war economy increased employment, robbing German jews and exploiting conquered countries also made some people better off. The nazis were murderers as well as thieves. The former is the worse crime but the latter partly explains their support in the population.

Last edited by horatio : 12-22-2009 at 12:35 AM.
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  #16  
Old 12-22-2009, 09:24 AM
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I agree that the issues within the Old Republic were not so chaotic as they were annoying and that Palpatine used the excuse of the war to justify the assumption of his greater power, much thhe way one of the leaders of my country used a foreign issue as an excuse to assert military power. My analogy with my current leader was simply implied to show how one can take existing discontent and make the population believe that anything else has to be better.

Horatio, you make very good points. The only thing I'll add is that many radical movements that gain power are often dismissed as fanacitism by the complacent majority within a country. The Nazis were deemed fanatics by the majority of Germans in the 1930s just as the radical militant Muslims today are dismissed as fanatics by the silent majority within Islam. Sometimes, it is the silent majority that has to be dismissed if fanatic extremism is to be quelled.

OK, no more politics. Just Star Wars from now on. Anyone else think that Anakin's padawan Ahsoka has a cute ass?
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  #17  
Old 12-22-2009, 09:39 AM
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Well for a Togruta.
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  #18  
Old 12-22-2009, 03:08 PM
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who is 14 i might add
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  #19  
Old 12-22-2009, 03:17 PM
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and also a cartoon
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  #20  
Old 12-22-2009, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martok2112 View Post
This is all a relative point of view. It's ideology.

Because to those whom we view(ed) as bad guys, in their own world view, what they are/were doing is righteous.
I have to disagree strongly. What Germans did in WW II wasn't righteous according to their own cultural standards. Same can be said about the Sowjets.
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