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  #11  
Old 12-08-2009, 04:03 AM
samwiseb samwiseb is offline
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I wonder what the TNG films looked like to the non-fans in the audience (besides seeming to confirm to them that ST in general was every bit as nerdy as they had always wanted to assume).

My point is, here we are agreeing (I think?) that the TNG films are lacking in scale or scope next to the originals. And yet, from Generations on, I think you can clearly see there is more money up on the screen than there had been for any of the TOS films prior (with the obvious exception of Star Trek The Motion Picture).

Now obviously as fans we had followed the TNG series along with its spin-offs; it was impossible for us not no notice all the series had the same general 'look' to them (lighting, camera angles, wardrobe, exterior fx shots, etc), and that the TNG-era films were largely that same exact style of filmmaking with just a LOT more money thrown at it. Which... kinda would make them seem smaller. Not to mention that the scripts themselves hardly seemed like 'film' caliber.

It also seems to me like film stocks in general, by the mid-90s, had reached a level of polished cleanliness that the could no longer do justice to fx-heavy films, particularly those of modest budgets. In the section on the ST09 DVD where they talk about lens flares, they make a point of turning off the flares during the final Enterprise flyby just to illustrate. And I thought, "that's it! THAT's why the exterior/interior elements just never quite seem to stitch together in the earlier films." However I was thinking specifically of the TNG films, as I've never had that problem with the TOS installments (except for V and VI, but then those latter installments had severe production problems/limitations anyway).

First Contact being the most popular of the TNGs, I also wonder if it didn't come the closest to 'tricking' audiences into 'seeing' an A-level movie (something I think STIV managed ten years earlier, although this post is already too long to get into the reasons). Obviously one would never mistake the movie for a Contact, or even an Alien Resurrection, but it also didn't seem small compared to a Starship Troopers either. I remember as a fan I wasn't too WOWed by it, but mostly just surprised that it played to the strengths of TNG as well as it did (without too many misfires in the mix).

Nemesis might have impressed me, had the script (don't even get me started on what passes for dialog in that movie) and overall execution not completely turned me off. A lot of the artwork, however cinematic in scale, just was not aesthetically pleasing at all. Mostly I was aware of those sets that were obviously smaller than their counterparts from previous films, such as the Romulan senate or the stellar cartography. Some cigar-smoking Paramount bigwig was already betting his money against the movie, and it showed. I would've kept the scale of those sets intact (Romulan senate should've looked at least as large as the Khitomer conference building in STVI), and trimmed some money from the action sequences to compensate. And given the script several more polishes.
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  #12  
Old 12-08-2009, 05:30 AM
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horatio horatio is offline
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I don't get this "TNG movies lack scope" argument. What's bigger, the 1701 glowing in the atmosphere of the Genesis planet or the 1701-D crushing on Verdian III? Which battle is more epic, the submarine-thriller-like Mutara nebula encounter or the fire-everything-against-the-Borg battle? Which theme is more touching, the needs of the many and the needs of the few in TWOK and TSFS ... or the needs of the many and the needs of the few in INS?

Now about TMP, I think it is a snooze-fest. I am usually someone who values ideas in Trek very much, but if the idea is compressed into the last few minutes of the movie and the rest is just FX festival, ship-porn and sterile characters, I start to yearn for a bit more action.
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Old 12-08-2009, 06:05 AM
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First Contact has a very big movie feel to it, Insurrection and Generations not as much. The Veridian III crash landing and the B vs. Nexus scenes are about the only truly movie-esque things that occur. Insurrection could have easily been an episode on TV, aside from the battle in the Briar Patch.
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Old 12-08-2009, 08:43 AM
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So what, the battle in the Mutara Nebula is the only truly movie-esque thing that occurs in TWOK.
I think that a certain bias arises because fans compare the movies to the underlying TV series. TOS had more than a ten year hiatus, TNG did not.

Anway, I really couldn't care less about how big or epic a movie is, I am more of a story guy. When the story sucks all the bling-bling and pew-pew cannot make up for it.
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  #15  
Old 12-08-2009, 09:13 AM
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I remember when it came out. I was in line at the theater. I took my two young sons and it was absolutely fantastic to see all those beloved characters up on the BIG SCREEN! To me, it felt not unlike I feel when I go to my family reunion. I remember back then, I was a casual fan, and I went to spend the night with my sister ( I was in for a visit, I lived away) My brother in law was a total Trekkie/Geek/Nerd or whatever you call us. I personally think I have passed him up now! Anyway, I was in the family room with my sister, when his best friend called. They spent the next half hour discussing every tiny aspect of the movie, particularly the refit of Enterprise. I thought he was crazy at the time, but now, I only wish I had of been part of the conversation. HAPPY ANNIVERSARY TMP! I do think it was sad the directors cut wasn't what we saw way back then, it was so much better than the screen version. I only wish Shat had of had the opportunity to have gone back and done a Directors cut of his movie as well. As for the movies feeling like Movies and not TV shows, I think all 6 of TOS movies felt like movies, and First Contact and Nemesis were as well.
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  #16  
Old 12-08-2009, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by horatio View Post
So what, the battle in the Mutara Nebula is the only truly movie-esque thing that occurs in TWOK.
I think that a certain bias arises because fans compare the movies to the underlying TV series. TOS had more than a ten year hiatus, TNG did not.

Anway, I really couldn't care less about how big or epic a movie is, I am more of a story guy. When the story sucks all the bling-bling and pew-pew cannot make up for it.
I enjoy story as well. No one could claim that it's not a factor for me because it's simply not true. You pointed out TWoK with the Mutara Nebula, which I forgot to mention. That movie, despite an excellent story, is very TV.

Also, the TNG movies don't have nearly as good of a track record with fans as the majority of the TOS films. You had three rather weak films out of four for TNG. It's just the way it works out. TNG didn't translate to the big screen nearly as well with both the general audience and Trekkies, aside from First Contact.
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Old 12-08-2009, 11:20 AM
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That's the bias I am talking about, one immediately compares the movies to the underlying series. I agree that TOS got better on the big screen whereas TNG got worse, but I don't see any general quality difference between 'the six and the four'.
But then again I am pretty lame as I don't see much quality differences between the five series either.
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  #18  
Old 12-08-2009, 11:25 AM
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I think after TSFS, the TOS films started to get weaker and a bit sillier overall, whereas the TNG films started like that and stayed there.
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  #19  
Old 12-08-2009, 11:25 AM
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jla1987 jla1987 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by horatio View Post
That's the bias I am talking about, one immediately compares the movies to the underlying series. I agree that TOS got better on the big screen whereas TNG got worse, but I don't see any general quality difference between 'the six and the four'.
But then again I am pretty lame as I don't see much quality differences between the five series either.
Series quality I tend to see falling off after the introduction of the Borg on Voyager, and then not fully recovering until the last season of Enterprise. Enterprise had always been heading in the right direction though, it just took too long to make it connect with the fans or canon.
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