[martok2112]

Originally Posted by Saquist

Frankly none of the movies have the best battle scenes. That belongs Largely and undeniably to DS9 specifically Way of the Warrior.

I like the Battle of the Mutara Nebula but it doesn't hold a candle to siege-ing DS9.
The Kelvin's battle with the Narada was ...frankly pathetic to many concessions and too much stupidity in handing a captain over to an ememy willingly. Bad writing can't be part of a great battle.

Way of the Warrior had a great (if all too brief) climactic battle (and a couple of cool battle shots before hand. It definitely was the start of a trend of making epic space battles for the small screen.

And again, how is it bad writing for a Captain to do what he thought he could to save his ship? The warning from Ayel was clear. Refusal would be unwise. If the Captain did not go, the Kelvin was immediately doomed. By Captain Robau going, he bought the Kelvin a little extra time to shore up what little it could in the way of weapons and defenses...not that they did much more than hold off a few torpedoes while the shuttlecraft escaped.

And we got one James T. Kirk out of the deal. Might not have if Robau hadn't gone over.

[Saquist]

Originally Posted by martok2112

Way of the Warrior had a great (if all too brief) climactic battle (and a couple of cool battle shots before hand. It definitely was the start of a trend of making epic space battles for the small screen.

A brief battle scene is what I would call First Contact.
Brief rise in action.
No suspense at all.
Worst Battle of Trek's History.

And again, how is it bad writing for a Captain to do what he thought he could to save his ship? The warning from Ayel was clear. Refusal would be unwise. If the Captain did not go, the Kelvin was immediately doomed. By Captain Robau going, he bought the Kelvin a little extra time to shore up what little it could in the way of weapons and defenses...not that they did much more than hold off a few torpedoes while the shuttlecraft escaped.

And we got one James T. Kirk out of the deal. Might not have if Robau hadn't gone over.

This was far from a catch 22 Martok.
That captain against just about every current day standard gave himself up like a lamb to a hostile enemy. If this had been any remotely logical enemy he would have been milked for intelligence that would eventually compromise his military and country.

Saving the lives of the crew is an absolute secondary. Not an absolute priority. It was the worst action any so called competent commander could have taken.

a-He didn't take a strike team to cause havoc on the enemy ship and to by them time.

b-He didn't take a load of explosives to cripple the Enemy

c-He didn't ram the enemy ship

d-He didn't send someone in his place rather than abandoning the bridge of his ship. (Deceiving the enemy on who was the captain which should have been a MUCH HARDER and BETTER decision)

e-He didn't attempt to attack the Enemy Commander to assassinate him

f-He didn't detonate the shuttle inside the enemy ship.

Once a stupid enemy gives such a wild opening like Nero gave the Commander of the Kelvin, there are any number of solutions one could have employed to by the crew time and even save the ship. Infact with a much smaller opening Kirk saved his ship from Khan in a FAR BETTER written scene where the enemy has reason to pause only a moment for the secrets of a doomsday device. Just like the Kelvin, Enterprise was wounded. The fact are Kirk was simply written smarter. He offered to transport himself aboard, but he knew that wasn't enough time. But with Kirk that was just an offer to stall. If he had would his crew have thought of prefix code?

That's why he's the Captain.

[martok2112]

I completely agree about the First Contact battle....too brief, and certainly blew the action wad at the beginning of the film.

We cannot judge the Kelvin incident by current day standards though. Likely the protocols for dealing with deep-space, first contact scenarios, especially hostile ones, would probably be different in the far future...especially if it is realized that the Kelvin had no change of doing any significant damage whatsoever to the Narada, short of ramming her, which the Kelvin ultimately did.

By the standards of protocol likely set forth in Trek's 23rd century timeline, Robau acted as correctly as he could.

[Saquist]

I don't know why you wouldn't, Martok.
The same stakes are involved and they have the same tier of priority.

Further:

Starfleet Order 2005: Orders the destruction of a starship by allowing matter and antimatter to mix in an uncontrolled manner. This is a last resort for a captain that allows him/her to prevent their ship or crew from falling into enemy hands.

The Captain is part of and the most important part of said crew.

[martok2112]

(I meant to post this earlier, but the posting protocols for this site are frakking wonky!)


We cannot judge the Kelvin incident by current day standards though. Likely the protocols for dealing with deep-space, first contact scenarios, especially hostile ones, would probably be different in the far future...especially if it is realized that the Kelvin had no change of doing any significant damage whatsoever to the Narada, short of ramming her, which the Kelvin ultimately did.

By the standards of protocol likely set forth in Trek's 23rd century timeline, Robau acted as correctly as he could.

The Romulans were from the future, and probably fairly familiar with Federation starship bridge layouts, even if they were just a mining ship. Going by the standard that whomever was sitting in the center seat at the time was probably the captain, and considering that Ayel's transmission was forced into reception, not voluntarily received, there was no time for Robau to set up any kind of deception. Ayel suddenly appeared, gave the ultimatum, and disappeared. The clock was ticking, and Robau, witnessing firsthand (along with the rest of the bridge crew...and certain missing crew persons) the swift destructive power of the ship before them, had to act. Offensive action was futile...defensive action even more so. Ramming the ship with who knows how many souls aboard was not a first option. He did not authorize directive 13 until he gave command to George Kirk.

Directive 13 (General Order 13?) apparently states that if offensive and defensive options have been exhausted, or are unavailable in the conventional sense, then the crew is to abandon ship, and the ship be set on auto-pilot to ram the enemy, and do as much damage as possible.

But remember too, that diplomacy is probably the first option to be attempted anyway, even in a hostile situation (in the Star Trek universe). So, Robau, having been forced into a defensive situation that clearly proved that an offensive tact would've been futile, he went with diplomacy, thinking of the lives of his crew, before himself... as a selfless StarFleet captain would, since it was not an exhausted option. As far as he was concerned, diplomacy was an option given to him, but only from a position of strength by the enemy. Robau did not know he was going to be interrogated, but he was probably sure it was his last away mission...evaahhhhhh.

[martok2112]

Let's put it like this, my friend:
I have two laws of storytelling....and I'm sure I'm not the first one to actually think of them.

1. Entertain thy audience.
2. Logic and physics will always give way to the purposes of dramatic storytelling...no if's and's or but's...if it threatens to bog down the progress of the story, and bore the audience.



So sayeth I, and so likely before me, someone else.

[Saquist]

That's how what was science fiction crosses resolutely into the realm of pure fantasy.
It's one of the reasons I'm not much of fan of Trek anymore. Entertainment is so cheap and easy to find and my time is rather limited. I could go with the entertainment RULES position but I'd rather do something else unless for once the story-teller wants to wow me by doing something more difficult than waving a wand to make all the problems of reality just melt away. At which point Trek ceases to be even remotely special and worse than mediocre.

I like space travel because it's possible and grounded in reality. I also like characters that can do nearly impossible things because they think outside the box. Dreams based on reality are far more exciting, intriguing and meaningful and expand my horizons. There is this feeling I've learned to love....when my mind is open to new and wondrous possibilities. That is a feeling I crave.

[martok2112]

Largely, Star Trek, like Star Wars, is pure fantasy. Sure, certain things have come to pass....cell-phones (communicators), iPad and other smart devices (PADD), but overall, Trek is still fantasy.

I don't go to a movie to seek enlightenment. I don't go to a movie to ponder the meaning of Life, The Universe, and Everything (including the Restaurant at the End of the Universe...LOL).

The only things that really irk me in fantasy and fiction are when people (especially those in military organizations) use improper communications protocols. Other than that, I'm pretty wide open for what passes for that universe's reality.

As much as I'm certain we'd love to have seen some individual adventures of the U.S.S. Kelvin, the writers could not turn the Kelvin incident into its own three hour affair just to kick off the remaining two hours. As you said, peoples' time is limited. The story must be told quickly, and yet satisfyingly. But, not everyone will be satisfied....alas, such is the nature of things.

Hehe......you wanna see something where not everyone is gonna be satisfied, and likely some are gonna be quite peeved? Just wait'll I release my BattleStar Galactica Wars video....then watch the proverbial fur fly.

[Saquist]

Martok I would say care or don't care.
Don't pretend to care.
There is not much in the way of logic in what happened in about 3/4's of that film. I point it out because I'm a person in search of realities.

I look up at the stars every night and I know it's possible to travel among them, to settle new worlds and to seek out new life and new civilizations. I know it's possible to go where no one has gone before. All those astronauts and cosmonaut that made traveling into space from a dream to reality know that too.

I've always been an explorer, that, with my desire for information has always defined me. I live for making two synapses come together...discovery understanding and exploration. Perhaps just as important is creativity, uniqueness and expression.

I tend to put a negative spin on entertainment just for entertainments sake because we justify alot of negative things just to be entertained. People out there have selfish ulterior motives and politics they're pushing that ultimately mean so little in the grand scheme of things. But I can't say enough about a teacher that entertains AND EDUCATES, a movie that Entertains and inspires our minds to be intelligent. It's how I will teach my children because I know just by watching the people around me that with so much time spent between the TV, the computer, video games and movies that....Entertainment motivated people are just about as bad as drug users looking for a daily fix. I may not have a wife or kids to care about and occupy the majority of my time but I have an abundance of work. Even if I did it doesn't mean I have to surrender my consciousness and intelligent self over to mindless entertainment and if you haven't noticed the media is giving us a lot of mindless entertainment...

The things that really matter are being neglected.
It repulses me. Absent fathers, declining education, drunk driving even dieases like cancer...just because a drag on a cigurette or joint ...feels good. Yet there is always an abundance of Entertainment. I don't want to just FEEL my way through life I want to learn and risk the chance that I might contribute something meaningful and selfless to society. Perhaps, though, I'm speaking beyond my years.

[martok2112]

You have some profound sentiments there, my friend. And certainly no one can hold them against you.

There are people who can accept entertainment for what it is, and separate fiction from reality, and there are those who cannot...and you'll find them in almost every form of entertainment that involves fiction....novels, movies, tv, video games, etc.

Yes, I am entertained by violent movies, and video games, but I also know that what happens in them is:

A. Fictional.
B. Not condoned by rational people.
C. Likely so over the top that it couldn't happen anyway.

My mom used to let me and my little brother watch R rated movies all the time, usually under her supervision. (I'm sure I regaled you with my "A Clockwork Orange" story... That was a course of a different holler.) She figured we'd be watching 'em eventually anyway...might as well get us ready. We turned out quite alright.

But when parents use video games and video entertainment as electronic babysitters....that's when I get irked.