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  #31  
Old 11-28-2009, 09:23 AM
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Indeed, but the Khans, Kruges, Shinzons and Neros seem to be more popular.

A crucial difference is whether a character behaves in a culture-typical way or goes crazy. Dukat's behaviour during the Occupation although clearly condemnable from our point of view is not unusual for a Cardassian. The four movies villains on the other hand have gone over the edge and don't do the usual Augment, Klingon or Romulan thing.
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  #32  
Old 11-28-2009, 11:45 AM
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It's not fair to compare Dukat with the Khans and other movie villains. They had a lot of time to build up Dukat's character on a long running TV series. That's apples and oranges to what happens in a 2 hour movie.
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Old 11-28-2009, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by DevilEyes View Post
That's exactly what made him such a compelling character, someone you didn't know if you loved to hate or hated to love. The best villains are those who are multi-faceted, appealing and can even be sympathetic, rather than just one-dimensional moustache-twirling bad guys who are just doing bad things because they are eeeevil.


Well, Dukat in any case proved to be too much for Ira Steven Behr.
Hahaha, I think we can all agree on that.
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  #34  
Old 11-28-2009, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Captain Tom Coughlin View Post
It's not fair to compare Dukat with the Khans and other movie villains. They had a lot of time to build up Dukat's character on a long running TV series. That's apples and oranges to what happens in a 2 hour movie.
True, that would be wrong expectations for a movie character, but I don't think that you have to do crazy over-the-top villains. Chang or Soran were fine IMO and as they both had something in common with the captains, being a warrior who does not yearn for peace (of course Kirk changes during TUC) or feeling how your time runs out, you could better relate to them. They are not unlike the protagonists, they have similar fears but at some point made a different choice.
That's a good representation of evil because it's ordinary people who commit horrible things, it could be you. When someone goes loco, you can detach yourself from it and wrap yourself up in the warm blanket of knowledge that you would never go down the crazy road.
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  #35  
Old 11-29-2009, 01:02 AM
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I don't see why you would consider season 2 to be inferior to season 3 - they are quite similar
Season 3 kicked off the whole Dominion arc that would last the rest of the series (technically the S2 finale did but it's just easier saying S3). It introduced more shapeshifters and you got an even better idea on where Odo came from then before. S3-S7 is what I loved about DS9 and yes it had it's bad episodes too and yes there are episodes in S1 and S2 that I enjoyed as well.

But in front of all that. Why I thought S3 was better than S1 and S2...

The USS Defiant...enough said.
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  #36  
Old 11-29-2009, 02:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by horatio View Post
True, that would be wrong expectations for a movie character, but I don't think that you have to do crazy over-the-top villains. Chang or Soran were fine IMO and as they both had something in common with the captains, being a warrior who does not yearn for peace (of course Kirk changes during TUC) or feeling how your time runs out, you could better relate to them. They are not unlike the protagonists, they have similar fears but at some point made a different choice.
That's a good representation of evil because it's ordinary people who commit horrible things, it could be you. When someone goes loco, you can detach yourself from it and wrap yourself up in the warm blanket of knowledge that you would never go down the crazy road.
Both Soran and Chang went crazy ,too.
Soran was nothing more than a junky going cold turkey, and Chang took the Willy Lohman road, when his dream of the klingon way of life was shattered.
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Old 11-29-2009, 05:39 AM
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Being addicted is not the same as being crazy. Both Picard and Kirk were still able to
retain a sane behaviour, Chang and Soran were not.
And Kirk's statement was a slip of the tongue, if he really had wished that, he indeed would have been crazy.
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  #39  
Old 11-29-2009, 06:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by horatio View Post
Indeed, but the Khans, Kruges, Shinzons and Neros seem to be more popular.

A crucial difference is whether a character behaves in a culture-typical way or goes crazy. Dukat's behaviour during the Occupation although clearly condemnable from our point of view is not unusual for a Cardassian. The four movies villains on the other hand have gone over the edge and don't do the usual Augment, Klingon or Romulan thing.
That's undoubtedly due to the vastly reduced screen time a Star Trek movie villain always gets when compared with a character who had 7 full seasons to develop and grow and show his different sides.

A two-hour movie can't compete with that amount of time when it has it's main cast to accomodate and the usual movie requirements. The movies become simpler because they have to be to get the point across.

There's no luxury to work them out fully.
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Old 11-29-2009, 06:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Odradek View Post
Being addicted is not the same as being crazy. Both Picard and Kirk were still able to
retain a sane behaviour, Chang and Soran were not.
And Kirk's statement was a slip of the tongue, if he really had wished that, he indeed would have been crazy.
I don't think Kirk's statement was a slip of the tongue, without that statement at the start his dialogue at the end about having his faith etc restored would mean nothing.

It's not a brilliantly done redemption because it's not really established quite what Gorkon's daughter actually really did do to accomplish this turnabout in Kirk, which was based mainly on David's murder in TSFS. One would think it was more Gorkon himself but Kirk thanks the daughter.

But then it comes back to the fact that the films have a very limited amount of time to get their point across. So we have a simple and easy to digest line at the start and an equally simple line at the end that clearly state the supposed journey of Kirk through the film.

If one buys the bits in the middle that are supposed to illustrate that - that's individual choice.
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